I think people that do kung fu, suck.

[AdrianK]

When I was a student of Tiger Kung Fu, back in the 1980s, sifu taught us the guard, the mount, escapes from the guard, ground and pound, high branches, low branches, rear naked chokes, wing chokes, triangle chokes, arm bars, wrist locks, elbow locks, chin na, gi chokes, and the list goes on and on. Were these things stressed to the same extent as a system which is primarily a grappling system? Of course not. Kung Fu systems are are primarily stand up systems. But ground techniques were taught.

Which branch of Tiger style? There are plenty.

Nonetheless, simply because it is taught by an instructor, does not mean it is part of kung fu. Plenty of people teach "ground techniques" in their systems nowadays, with these ground techniques coming from BJJ, Wrestling, etc. - That doesn't make them kung fu.

The fact of the matter is, there is not a single kung fu style that encompasses a comparable level of knowledge and effectiveness of ground game, that BJJ or Wrestling does. The only thing that comes close is shuai chiao.

Aside from that, "Everything in MMA is found in Kung Fu.", is such a ridiculous statement if only for the fact that MMA is a concept, not a style or collection of styles. Not only that, but is also ever-evolving, with the latest training methods which are developed based on the latest, and most up to date knowledge of the human body.

Thats not to say there isn't tons to derive from kung fu. Theres much that is relevant. But the MMA community is far different, far more scrutinizing, far more focused on combat and science, and thus you will find plenty in MMA that is not in kung fu.

[TenTigers]

and what does it matter? Your Gung-Fu should always be evolving. (the original MMA-remember?)
So, now my Gung-Fu has groundfighting-from various sources-wherever I can take them; BJJ, Silat, Shuai-Jiao/Seut-Gohk, Ne-Waza, Joi Bot Sien, Yo Mama Ryu, whatever. And whoever I teach will learn it, and pass it down, and so on, etc.
This argument no longer exists.

[David Jamieson]

what is a guard pass but getting at a guy who's lying on his back?

how about a soccer kick to the head while he's down there?
How about hitting him with a club or a chair while he lies there waiting for ou to come grapple.

Kungfu, by definition is beyopnd sport. It is not sport. It includes martial art devlopment, but that martial art development is not restricted to the aspects of what can or cannot be done under sanctioned rules in 3 rounds by 5 minutes each.

sport fighting has it's place and can definitely be used as a part of martial arts training and indeed it is.

no martial art has everything. No kungfu style has everything and no mma practice has everything.

to bring it down to the argument of mma v traditional is to lose sight of the point at hand.

To think that kungfu is only a martial art and is not inclusive of the holistic development of a human being is like doing yoga only for the postures. It is suffice it to say incomplete.

just pointing it out.

[AdrianK]

and what does it matter? Your Gung-Fu should always be evolving. (the original MMA-remember?)
So, now my Gung-Fu has groundfighting-from various sources-wherever I can take them; BJJ, Silat, Shuai-Jiao/Seut-Gohk, Ne-Waza, Joi Bot Sien, Yo Mama Ryu, whatever. And whoever I teach will learn it, and pass it down, and so on, etc.
This argument no longer exists.

The argument isn't that you won't find it anywhere. Its that in general, you won't because it isn't part of the curriculum.
The problem isn't with your personal gung fu, or a single good gung fu school. The argument is that in general, you won't find it. To give credit to gung fu where there is none, is ridiculous.

Thats great that you incorporate techniques from these various styles - In general, this SHOULD be the attitude of teachers and students. The unfortunate reality is that it isn't, and in general, most kung fu guys don't even feel the need to consider the ground, at all.

Kungfu, by definition is beyopnd sport. It is not sport. It includes martial art devlopment, but that martial art development is not restricted to the aspects of what can or cannot be done under sanctioned rules in 3 rounds by 5 minutes each.

MMA is not restricted to sport fighting.
Mixed Martial Arts is the concept of cross-training in anything that is relevant. And the MMA community as a whole has a focus on BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling, and Muay Thai which, while they do have rules, have a ridiculous amount of fundamentals that most kung fu out there dont.

But just as there is that minority of gung fu people that train realistically. There is also the mma people who train for the street.

I can't tell you how many bouncers i've met who use their BJJ, muay thai and wrestling effectively.

[Dim Wit Mak]

and what does it matter? Your Gung-Fu should always be evolving. (the original MMA-remember?)
So, now my Gung-Fu has groundfighting-from various sources-wherever I can take them; BJJ, Silat, Shuai-Jiao/Seut-Gohk, Ne-Waza, Joi Bot Sien, Yo Mama Ryu, whatever. And whoever I teach will learn it, and pass it down, and so on, etc.
This argument no longer exists.

The evolving nature of Kung Fu is very important to keep in mind, as you pointed out. It has always evolved. Adaptation is a huge part of the survival scenario. But then again, this can be said about many areas. Look at how people are scurrying to adapt to the current economic climate.

Kung Fu has always has both the jitsu and dow aspects. Ancient China was a savage place, and monks had to survive as well as seek spiritual enlightenment. In modern Kung Fu, the jitsu has shrunk a bit, while the Dow remains strong.

Many do not have the patience for Kung Fu and prefer the "Me learn smash plenty quick." systems. Nothing wrong with that. Different strokes for different folks.

[AdrianK]

Many do not have the patience for Kung Fu and prefer the "Me learn smash plenty quick." systems.

1.) Understanding of a technique is what allows people to teach and learn styles like boxing, bjj, muay thai, wrestling, etc. - If more kung fu teachers understood their techniques on a more technical level, you would see the progression into fighting ability at the same pace. Unfortunately the ignorance of the technical and scientific aspects are translated into the teaching, "if you practice it constantly, it will come to you", or if you just do it, someday you'll understand it.

This is an extremely ineffective method of teaching, and the reason much kung fu is in such a horrible state.


2.) Kung Fu(and I say it as a single entity, because it applies to ALL styles, karate, tae kwon do, anything) - when taught properly will, as implied above, be as combat effective in the same amount of time as your so-called "Me learn smash plenty quick" systems - which, btw is an extremely disrespectful way to describe systems which offer incredible depth and which you obviously lack an understanding of.


3.) Effectiveness is in simplicity. The greatest so-called "Secrets" to martial arts that I've found, aren't in complexity or something that would take years to understand. To be honest, they're simple, direct and effective methods. They don't take ten years to learn. All of the methods i've found that aren't over-complicated to the point of ridiculousness, can be learned in the same amount of time that it takes to learn how to jab, cross, uppercut, or throw a combination.


4.) Patience? A Persons time is extremely valuable. Especially when you're being charged $100/month for someone to teach you who has no verifiable fighting ability. Thats not to say they don't have skill or teaching ability - But people will be patient for something they believe is valuable to them. Many kung fu instructors are too incompetent to pass on this value. Whereas you'll find plenty of boxing and mma gyms who offer quality fighting instruction and the value for people to devote their time and energy to.

[David Jamieson]

The argument isn't that you won't find it anywhere. Its that in general, you won't because it isn't part of the curriculum.
The problem isn't with your personal gung fu, or a single good gung fu school. The argument is that in general, you won't find it. To give credit to gung fu where there is none, is ridiculous.

Thats great that you incorporate techniques from these various styles - In general, this SHOULD be the attitude of teachers and students. The unfortunate reality is that it isn't, and in general, most kung fu guys don't even feel the need to consider the ground, at all.




MMA is not restricted to sport fighting.
Mixed Martial Arts is the concept of cross-training in anything that is relevant. And the MMA community as a whole has a focus on BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling, and Muay Thai which, while they do have rules, have a ridiculous amount of fundamentals that most kung fu out there dont.

But just as there is that minority of gung fu people that train realistically. There is also the mma people who train for the street.

I can't tell you how many bouncers i've met who use their BJJ, muay thai and wrestling effectively.

so you're a fanbois then. excellent. lol

[Violent Designs]

so you're a fanbois then. excellent. lol

Not really.

He's actually quite dedicated to the Chinese martial arts . . . . just happens to be realistic about the limitations of CMA.

Which aren't really "limitations" if you never plan on competing in wrestling, MMA, BJJ, etc . . .

But saying that CMA teaches ground fighting at the level of BJJ, is ****ing ridiculous.

[AdrianK]

so you're a fanbois then. excellent. lol

Thats especially funny because I don't really watch MMA anymore, nor do I attend an MMA gym or hold any rank in any grappling art.

But I see the weaknesses that are extremely prevalent. These weaknesses are just as prevalent in most karate schools as well.

I know who the legitimate kung fu instructors are, in my area. And I can tell you that there are ten times as many kung fu schools out here in california that are complete bull****. This goes for around the country as well, all you need do is check out what these people are offering on their own respective websites with their own videos and such. Good Kung Fu is hard to find. Good MMA on the other hand, is pretty easy to find where-ever you go.

Thats not to say there aren't plenty of MMA Mc-dojos, but because of the more open nature of boxing, muay thai, bjj, sambo, wrestling, etc., its harder to find as much complete crap as say... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVTQM...eature=related

[Eddie]

Ancient China was a savage place, and monks had to survive as well as seek spiritual enlightenment.

is that a fact or just hearsay?

Ancient Europe was probably even more 'savage'

[Violent Designs]

You're all wrong.

Ancient Africa was more savage than anywhere else.

[Kansuke]

Actually, the Savage Land was really, really savage 'back in the day.'


http://www.marvel.com/universe/Savage_Land

[banditshaw]

Actually, the Savage Land was really, really savage 'back in the day.'


http://www.marvel.com/universe/Savage_Land

Ok your a fanboy too.......

The Kazar stories were cool. But nothing was as Savage as the Hyborian age.

[David Jamieson]

Thats especially funny because I don't really watch MMA anymore, nor do I attend an MMA gym or hold any rank in any grappling art.

But I see the weaknesses that are extremely prevalent. These weaknesses are just as prevalent in most karate schools as well.

I know who the legitimate kung fu instructors are, in my area. And I can tell you that there are ten times as many kung fu schools out here in california that are complete bull****. This goes for around the country as well, all you need do is check out what these people are offering on their own respective websites with their own videos and such. Good Kung Fu is hard to find. Good MMA on the other hand, is pretty easy to find where-ever you go.

Thats not to say there aren't plenty of MMA Mc-dojos, but because of the more open nature of boxing, muay thai, bjj, sambo, wrestling, etc., its harder to find as much complete crap as say... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVTQM...eature=related

so you're a master then?

[AdrianK]

^
Don't know where you got that. Because I have an opinion that I believe in?

IMHO, Mastery is unachievable in martial arts, as it is something that is both artistic and scientific. The understanding of our human body changes on a daily basis, let alone all of the advances that are currently being made in our understanding of the human brain, and then there's psychology. So while a decent amount of knowledge can be obtained on the science of martial arts - Such as technique, structure, power generation, health, psychology and many others - it will never be a complete knowledge.

And on the artistic side, art is human expression and martial arts would be the expression of the human body... in combat against strong opponents, we're forced to dig into the deepest depths of who we are, and express our emotions in a completely honest way. Its not easy to hide who you are, when you're being pushed to your physical and mental limits. There is no mastery in artistic expression, its simply who you are.


Then again, mastery has several definitions and our understanding of the word could be very different.