Shaolin Ape-Monkey Fist

[Sal Canzonieri]

Oh I see,

I don't know about TianXi's forms really, lots of stuff I've never seen. Could be.

@Sal

If you like origin forms you HAVE to see nanyuan Xiao Hong Quan,

Every form comes from this!

Wow, that would be great.

How does Nayuan Xiao Hong Quan compare to the Lao Xiao Hong Quan set (the longer fuller version?) I think I have it posted on my YouTube channel.

I have seen Nanyuan Tongbi Quan.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hmm, I find that hard to believe that he solely created it.

I have a Shaolin Qigong book that has the same set, with different names for the movements, and in a different order.

So maybe he redeveloped the set in the way he particularly teaches it, but regardless, the original postures are already in existence.

yeah, "Shaolin Wu Fang Chan Gong" 'Five Direction Chan Work' section of this book:
中医气功学
ISBN 978-7-80231-223-4

Some of the same postures with the same names, but the 3rd one is missing and instead a totally different 5th one is there (which is found in Chan Yuan Gong). And there is no 6th one.

So, I don't see how he "invented" it, just changed it to make it his own.

[LFJ]

How does Nayuan Xiao Hong Quan compare to the Lao Xiao Hong Quan set (the longer fuller version?) I think I have it posted on my YouTube channel.

RDH can't access Youtube in China... but it's the one performed by Shi Dejun titled Laojia Hongquan on Youku and other Chinese video sites.

Unfortunately, all I can find is the entire hour long video. But here it is for reference:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTY5OTcyMDM2.html

[wenshu]

I love the smell of an inferiority complex mixed with dairy sweat.

Especially the morning after an all nighter of gormandized butterfat and self loathing.

[RenDaHai]

Wow, that would be great.

How does Nayuan Xiao Hong Quan compare to the Lao Xiao Hong Quan set (the longer fuller version?) I think I have it posted on my YouTube channel.

I have seen Nanyuan Tongbi Quan.

Hey Sal, Thats an interesting question (and thanks for posting the video LFJ). I know the one. This form is actually the XiaoHongQuan isolated in the mountain village 'LuoTuoYuan' (The village LiangYiquan master of Epo is from). I went there and actually when they perform the form they do all the Shu Shen movements in Ding Bu as you would expect. They call the form Dahong quan for some reason though it is certainly XiaoHOngQuan.

ANyway actually nanyuan Xiaohong QUan is closer to the current xiao hong quan, although all its movements are long armed and the rear hand is held in a hook against the rear leg like in this form. However it contains no PiXinZhang (heart splitting palm)! It follows largely the same sequence as XHQ but is shorter and much simpler. But at the same time more profound in its simplicity. Instead of The push palm all its techniques are a relaxed Tiger claw and it favours the back of the hand like BanShou but done to the side of the face as opposed to the front. The relaxed tiger claw almost looks like sword fingers but with the thumb open and ready to grasp. It can be seen in the shaolin Mural. This Tiger claw is maintained through most of the moves and is a useful hand as it can change at any time, more quickly than a fist.

But When you see it you will see how its simple moves can easily be changed to many other shaolin techniques. ANd indeed many other northern styles. It is called MuQuan (mother fist) after all and I believe a great deal of shaolin wushu (and other styles) is based on it. I think it represents an older Xiaohong quan and I believe it has evolved less than the current one. Certainly seeing it helps the understanding of the current xiaohongquan as well.


I have to start filming some of these things while they are still here.....

LFJ I'll perform this one for you when you get to China.

[RenDaHai]

I love the smell of arrogance in the morning.

Ah, Modesty is a weakness!

[LFJ]

I have to start filming some of these things while they are still here.....

LFJ I'll perform this one for you when you get to China.

Yes, you should even film yourself doing them. You have very good and powerful gongfu! Don't be shy, for the sake of research and preservation!

Wish I had more time. I will have a pretty full schedule everyday.

I know Shi Deyang has many sets or versions of sets he doesn't teach much, including Nanyuan material. The traditional part of his school basically does the standard Shaolin sets in the way you see them nowadays in Dengfeng. I wonder if he also has this Nanyuan XHQ you speak of. Do you know where else it may be found?

[RenDaHai]

Hehe, Thanks, yeah I'll get around to filming one day....

I had to go to rather a lot of trouble to learn it, and its not in Dengfeng. If you ever want to go there though I'll tell you how. But I do happen to know for a fact that at least one monk inside shaolin practices this form, and several monks who spent time there. And I would not be surprised at all if Deyang knows it. It is the same sect as his Tongbei quan. Tong bei is their Kanjia quan, their favourite set so if he learned this it stands to reason he would have the oppertunity to learn any of their sets.

You'll have to get as much info from ShiDeyang as you can, I know he has a ton of rare stuff that it would be cool just to hear about.

[Thomas316]

its good to hear you will consider making a dvd. can you please choose an external shaolin form and also demonstrate the hidden applications on the dvd?

[LFJ]

The hand posture is called Ren Shou, "acknowledgement hands", like two old Chinese ladies greeting each other by touching their knuckles together of their hands, everyone has seen this hand gesture in many old movies and so on.

In application it is a sudden wipe of the opponent's brow that sends him off balance and tipping over to the ground, or else feel a broken or sprained neck if showing any resistance.

That is 认手. I haven't heard it this way.

In the Shaolin Encyclopedia on Xiaotongbiquan it is 纫手, pronounced exactly the same way. This "ren" means "to thread" like threading a needle, which Shi Deyang explained comes from monks daily lives where they must sometimes repair robes or sew quilts. They realized this hand shape where the fingers and thumbs come together to thread a needle can be used in applications.

It's basically the same posture as in this Yuanhouquan, obviously because Xiaotongbiquan is partially based on it. I wonder what the lyrics are like on this Yuanhouquan.

[LFJ]

ANyway actually nanyuan Xiaohong QUan is closer to the current xiao hong quan, although all its movements are long armed and the rear hand is held in a hook against the rear leg like in this form.

Hook against the rear leg, just like the Laojia Hongquan mentioned above. Also Xiaotongbiquan does several gongbu tuizhang with the rear hand in goushou against the leg.

Instead of The push palm all its techniques are a relaxed Tiger claw and it favours the back of the hand like BanShou but done to the side of the face as opposed to the front.

Nanyuan Datongbiquan is very repetitive and does the banshou like that a lot as well. It looks like tuizhang but strikes to the outside with the back of the hand.

It sounds like the Xiaohongquan that Xiaotongbiquan and Nanyuan Tongbiquan is partially based on must be this Nanyuan Xiaohongquan. I'm excited to see what it's like.

The relaxed tiger claw almost looks like sword fingers but with the thumb open and ready to grasp. It can be seen in the shaolin Mural. This Tiger claw is maintained through most of the moves and is a useful hand as it can change at any time, more quickly than a fist.

If it's just like the sword fingers but with the thumb open, then this is one Shi Deyang uses a lot. The second section of his version of Baduanjin does this with the "drawing" hand also bending the index and middle in just like you would actually draw a bow, making it look more like a tiger or eagle claw. Also the sword form Longquanjian has the thumb open like this, index and middle extended.

[RenDaHai]

It may be interesting to know that the Renshou XiaoTongbei quan is also nanyuan pai, although from a different time.

Thats why the name is so confused. XiaoTOng bei is like in the LZH videos, Datongbei is one we all know (see CuiXiqi above), and Renshou xiaoTongbei is a Nanyuan form. As is the long pao quan with lots of Xiexings.

However Nanyuan like Xiyuan is also split into different sects.

Yeah Nanyuan Xiaohong quan is very interesting. It even contains the drawing a bow posture from BaDuanJin with the tiger claw. (In place of standard XHQ Jinjiduli).

At one time Xiyuan and nanyuan Xiaohong quan was one form but I believe the nanyuan one may be an older version, would take a long time to explain why.

On Renshou , I have heard both different names. But I use the threading a needle name. However as i was told it is because it hits a precise target, like trying to thread a needle. It is often used as a change after a missed technique, I.e Tuizhang misses and renshou continues.

Yuan HOu quan I have seen CLose up, it actually uses several different hands including one very unique hand with 1 finger extended. Also the video doesn't show all the form, it has some strange moves in there later. Very cool though. Some techniques from Luohan Quan.

[LFJ]

It may be interesting to know that the Renshou XiaoTongbei quan is also nanyuan pai, although from a different time.

Thats why the name is so confused. XiaoTOng bei is like in the LZH videos, Datongbei is one we all know (see CuiXiqi above), and Renshou xiaoTongbei is a Nanyuan form. As is the long pao quan with lots of Xiexings.

I remember talking about those Liu Zhenhai videos on Xiaotongbiquan. Didn't the sequences of at least one of them match up with the lyrics of the "lost" Taizu Changquan sets in the Shaolin Encyclopedia? Will have to look up that discussion again.

On Renshou , I have heard both different names. But I use the threading a needle name. However as i was told it is because it hits a precise target, like trying to thread a needle. It is often used as a change after a missed technique, I.e Tuizhang misses and renshou continues.

Nice.

Yuan HOu quan I have seen CLose up, it actually uses several different hands including one very unique hand with 1 finger extended. Also the video doesn't show all the form, it has some strange moves in there later. Very cool though. Some techniques from Luohan Quan.

I see the one finger thing in the video, unless it's another kind. There's another clip that starts in the middle, on Youtube so I'm not sure if you've seen it. He does several more moves that aren't in the other full video. But it also cuts off before he finishes.

[Xian]

Anywhere in this thread was a video of Shi Yongwen where he does a lot of forms and also does an ape stick form(Rendahai mentioned it). In some parts I was somehow remembered of this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bnsr...eature=related

I was lucky to learn a part of it, during a Seminar. Its from an rather unknown lineage of Hung Kuen. I asked the master of the roots of this form. He said is not complety clear where it does comes from, but it seems according to his knowledge that Yang Wu Lang learned it somewhere and incorperated it into the style. To be honest I cant recall it 100%


Kind regards,
Xian

[Xian]

Can someone maybe send me the pdf mentioned a few sites before ? Please send me an PN and Ill give you my email.

Thanks in advance,

Xian