Buck Sing Choy Lay Fut is different to other branches of Choy Lay Fut.

[Drake]

anyways, i'm confused to what you refer to as whippy?

You know... whippy...

[hskwarrior]

Whip it good!...........crack that whip!

[Buck Sing Gwoon]

Lama Pai Sifu,

When a school constantly drills its students for the very reason of fighting only and focuses its attention primarily to totally destroying their opponent by attacking the vital organs such as the throat and groin then thats what we teach.

We dont have a Black Belt Club and give people false assurances based on the colour of the material around their waist. We dont ask you to become a member of a Black Belt Club. We tell you that we are a fighting school and thats it.

Buck Sing CLF schools focus on that.

This does not mean other CLF schools are not good or aggressive but rather that we only focus on that.

That is why I said that BSCLF is generally more aggressive than other CLF.

From beginning to end all you are taught is to attack vital targets and to keep going till you are the last person standing.

We dont have a belt system nor do we grade. We teach combat only and our area of expertise is the charp chui and its vast combination.

My Sifu is not know as the five animal forms kid.... He is the fighting Black Panther of CLF. He is one of the 5 people all of whom were Buck Sing CLF fighters that were selected by the CLF community to fight and represent our CLF style against other styles.

In BSCLF we mentally and physically break down our students and then rebuild them with a mindset to persevere and to totally hurt and punish their adversary.

When you go to a school that primarily focuses on training like this you either stay or go. If you stay your mindset and training is constantly drilled that you must totally obliterate your opponent.

All people are different so some students will be more aggressive than others.... however if you are bred in that enviroment then you will ultimately ( most likely ) pick up those qualities.

At the end of the day all styles are good and it comes down to the person, however the enviroment that you train in makes a difference to the outcome of who you are. In the Buck Sing CLF Style we focus and constantly drill deadly aggressive combat techniques.

[hskwarrior]

dang, i couldn't have said it better nick.

For those who ARE fighting schools, there's no need to impress or even stress the issue. We, you, all do what we do.

I have always stated that my lineage and school is a fighting one. Never backed down from that. So i can completely agree with what sifu nick just said.

[TenTigers]

Agree with Nick-
There are in fact, techniques and methods that are inherently aggressive.
Just as intercepting someone's intent-meaning, not waiting until their strike is out to block, but to strike before it even gets out. He moves first, I hit first. If you cannot do this, then you cannot say you are honestly doing the system.
The hard truth is, the people that cannot do this, drop out. The teacher tells them "If you can't get this technique, this method, then you won't get the system. It's not for you."
But as Nick pointed out, it's not about belts, and memberships, it's about maintaining the integrity of the style. In this respect, JLSPM is the same as BSCLF.
Of course, there is a danger of the style dissappearing altogether due to this very reason. But that is a risk some teachers are willing to take, rather than it get destroyed.

[hskwarrior]

now this is sounding good.

Nick and TT is right. people bypassed me too cause i was too aggressive with the style. OUR system ISN"T for everyone. most will drop out when training gets too rough. but my students, they know bumps n bruises and black eyes come with the territory. I want them to KNOW their system, so i train them hard.

Case in point, one of my new students was a student of DFW's lineage. He immediately noticed the difference in method, approach, emphasis, aggression. in fact, he felt what and the way i teach fitted him more than what he was learning over there.

it's all up to the school, and how they approach their realistic training methods. if all you do is play patty cake all day, then you'll never understand fighting. and you will be part of the BAD that gives gung fu the bad name.

[David Jamieson]

One thing about Tam Sam's kungfu was that it had the 5 sets from Ku yu-cheung included in it due to the exchange of students and mutual respect each of these men had for each other. At least, that's how I've heard the story from a few sources now.

so buk sing has within it, part of a whole other style that the other branches do not have.

Both these kungfu masters are legendary by all accounts.

[CLFNole]

I would be interested to know to what extent did Ku Yu Jeung influence Tam Sam and vice versa for that matter.

Buck Sing Gwoon, any sight on this?

[Drake]

now this is sounding good.

Nick and TT is right. people bypassed me too cause i was too aggressive with the style. OUR system ISN"T for everyone. most will drop out when training gets too rough. but my students, they know bumps n bruises and black eyes come with the territory. I want them to KNOW their system, so i train them hard.

Case in point, one of my new students was a student of DFW's lineage. He immediately noticed the difference in method, approach, emphasis, aggression. in fact, he felt what and the way i teach fitted him more than what he was learning over there.

it's all up to the school, and how they approach their realistic training methods. if all you do is play patty cake all day, then you'll never understand fighting. and you will be part of the BAD that gives gung fu the bad name.

PATTY CAKE WITH FISTS!!

am i rite?

[David Jamieson]

I would be interested to know to what extent did Ku Yu Jeung influence Tam Sam and vice versa for that matter.

Buck Sing Gwoon, any sight on this?

There was apparently a lot of influence.
The two men exchanged students following the 1928 tournament in which they have a story about them as well.

Tam Sam would send his students to Ku yu-cheung and vice versa.
Tam Sam's Choy li fut now has tun ta, moi fa, bot bo, mo i and chum sam in it's curriculum which are all bak sil lum sets.

I woul say that is a pretty extensive influence. I'm sure there are interesting details to the relationship that not many get to hear though. So yes, by all means if anyone has some stories from the old timers that would be cool.

[hskwarrior]

Tam Sam had alot of students, especially prior to the Ku Yu Jeung situation. However, there was an exchange of 5 students a piece involved with a sort of exchange program. Still, I'd be interested in knowing whether TAM SAM actually learned some of the northern stuff from his students, or was it passed down within their lineage by those 5 students who were sent over to the Buk Siu Lum school.

For myself, this is interesting, because prior to Ku Yu Jeung, Tam Sam was teaching "HUNG SING CLF".........So what i'd like to know, is if there is a split within TAM SAM lineages where one side teaches the HSCLF as it was passed down to TAM SAM, while the other side teaches the Buk Sil Lum material.

Another question........did Tam Sam ever learned the forms that his students brought over, or did he just let those people teach what they learned?

Can you help me with that one Sifu Nick?

[Buck Sing Gwoon]

Grandmaster Tarm Sarm started his teaching of CLF around mid 1910's. He started teaching in the Tarm Shrine. (At that time, most villages in China had their own shrine to pay respect to their ancestors.) As the number of disciples grew to 60, Grandmaster Tarm Sarm moved his gwoon to Siu Buck (Little North), a region in the Canton city and named his gwoon - Buck Sing Tarm Sarm Gwoon.

There are commonalities in CLF, but the principles of the techniques between Buck Sing and Hung Sing are different.

The founder of Buck Sing CLF, Grandmaster Tarm Sarm did not stay long enough under his Hung Sing Sifu to have learned many Hung Sing forms and techniques.

In order to better himself Grandmaster Tarm Sarm kept thinking of and establishing better ways of using his kung fu. Grandmaster Tarm Sarm modified what he was taught while a Hung Sing student under Master Lui Chan and sparred with the senior students in the school and easily defeated them all. GrandmasterTarm Sarm also sparred with his Sifu, Master Lui Chan knocking him down many times and defeating him. Grandmaster Tarm Sarm left after this incident.

Grandmaster Tarm Sarm spent many years travelling China looking for kung fu masters who could add to his knowledge. He would challenge them to combat and exchange skills. This refined his skill, enabling him to surpass all others.

The Buck Sing name was used for many years by Grandmaster Tarm Sarms students however officially the Tarm Sarm Gwoon was established in 1923.

Grandmaster Tarm Sarm met Master Ku Yu Cheung in 1929 or early 1930's, long after the establishment of the Buck Sing Gwoon.

One note - OUR NAME, BUCK SING, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MASTER KU YU CHEUNG. We already had and used the name Buck Sing Gwoon.

There was an exchange of students between Grandmaster Tarm Sarm and Master Ku Yu Cheung. These 2 Master however did not fight against each other. Buck Sing CLF utilizes footwork of Northern Shaolin.

GrandmasterTarm Sarm is recognised as the 'founder' of Buck Sing CLF, this is for obvious and distinct reasons.

Buck Sing and Hung Sing are not one and the same thing. If they were, then they'll be only 2 lineages of CLF, not 3.

[Shaolinlueb]

my CLF is better.


ok im just trolling ignore me.

[nospam]

I would be interested to know to what extent did Ku Yu Jeung influence Tam Sam and vice versa for that matter.

In my opinion the influence was not great for these 2 masters. As we all know Master Tam fought and discussed gung fu with many Masters, and it is well known that Master Tam's philosophy was that the true test of a technique was in combat.

There are many stories and/or versions of what may or may not have happened. It was explained to me by my master that Master Tam and Master Ku fought and Tam got the upper hand. In speaking with Master Ku's lineage, I was told their version is that both masters did indeed fight and Master Ku got the better of Master Tam. In my opinion and considering who Master Tam was and based on his recorded bouts, there was a fight between these two masters. Who won? That is less important than what the outcome was: two renowned masters that exchanged students for the betterment of Chinese martial arts.

From my discussions with my lineage and that of Master Ku's, for the most part the influence was the addition of a few respective fist patterns on both sides that the students learned, not the 2 masters in question, and in the training of 2 different combat philosophies. I would hazard a guess this training exchange had varying individual impacts depending on what each student was able to take from their lessons.

As we all know, we all learn and assimilate experiences differently. In our own kwoons, classmates that may have started at the same time will assimilate their teachings and perform their skill differently. To me, this is the essence or Life of gung fu. It is the unknown factor - we all have light bulbs that turn on to lighten our way but to what is enlightened will be different for each person.

In this regard, and on the subject of the impact this exchange between 2 masters had, at least for their students, it meant techniques were a little different because the influence was varied. But for each exchange student during that period, loyalties were still tight to their original and first teacher/style. I know my lineage of Bak Sing is a little different than others due, in part, to the influence of this exchange and how my great grandmaster Tam Fai Pan assimilated his gung fu - the greatest influence of which was from his father Tam Sam.

The impact this exchange had on the 2 masters? Most likely nothing more than new perspectives and a few new techniques to assimilate as they would. In the end, we are Bak Sing and they are Bak Sil lum - 2 distinct styles.

nospam

[hskwarrior]

good post. and i agree about the light bulb thing. it's happened to me, and i tell my students about it. but its really cool when you SEE your students light bulbs light up.

thanks for your response.