Buck Sing Choy Lay Fut is different to other branches of Choy Lay Fut.

[Fu-Pow]

The number of hand forms in CLF is deceptively high because many are composed of the same stances and hand techniques only in different combinations and sequences. As you progress through the forms the combinations and sequences get increasingly complex and difficult.

The form I am learning now( Bagua Sam) is incredibly difficult. The foot work forces some very unnatural transitions and in the words of my Sifu, it is very "co(ky." So the less complicated forms might be more useful in terms of actual fighting but the more advanced forms push your physical limits.

So the question is not that Baksing CLF has less in the way of techniques (all CLF has pretty much the same techs) but they may not have the same level of complexity in their forms.

There are probably benefits and drawbacks to each curriculum.

My thought is that we should try to preserve as much of CLF as we can (ie teach lots of forms) and allow people to select those couple of forms that become their specialty. But if we lose parts of the curriculum then we have no way of getting it back.

[choyleefutman]

I can't agree more with Fu-Pow on this. I have met one clf student , and their written version of the history of Cheung Yim says he was into his 70's before he died, yet they also mentioned elsewhere that Cheung Yim was ambushed (in his 30s) by more than 20 + people and died afterwards.....

This student just blew up and became rude after being questioned about this discrepancy.......sigh....respect your sifu is one thing, but that should not prevent you from seeking out the truth, or at least, since no one really knows that truth, something that makes sense.

In the old days when information was not efficiently transmitted, someone could make up stories, pass them down to the next generation, and after some more spreading through 'elders', and these lies become truth.....and by merely applying fictitious figures and dates, these become the 'bible'. Or, this master defeated the other one....without any proof, students would blindly take what the 'elders' say and take that as the undeniable truth. How sad...

[regulator]

while i will agree that of course seeking truth is a good thing, there are also rules and decorum that one must follow if he is to respect tradition and the very 'truth' he seeks.
of course, no one wants to 'blindly' follow their sifu, this implies that the todai is a slobbering idiot with no judgement skills whatsoever. if my sifu told me, for example, "tarm sarm was really a cross-dressing european nun", i'd definately not subscribe to that. however, in certain matters (namely those of gung fu family history, mo duk, and other things), one would do well to trust in the counsel and wisdom of their elders, and your sifu (remember...sifu is as "father" in your gung fu family) is your closest and most precious elder in your gung fu family. defy your sifu? in private, i am sure we have all had thoughts of these things. Openly defy your sifu in public? Not a wise decision, and it shows lack of character and wisdom in yourself to do so. Such an act is quite a grave risk to both your relationship with your sifu, your sigungs, other todai, etc. as well as the relationship of others with the aforementioned ones, for if you cannot maintain the level of trust that is required in a student/master relationship, why are you with your sifu in the first place? Even more pointed, if others see this, your sifu (and gung-fu family) loses face! And for what? So your self-righteous ideals could perhaps be realized? At what cost? Is it truly worth it? The wise man thinks before he acts, and weighs the costs of the decisions he makes, even MORESO when they directly affect his sifu, todai, and their reputation. He thinks of the others his decisions could potentially affect, and his actions/statements regarding his sifu are selfless, for only then is his cup truly empty. We aren't talking about common sense (the Tarm Sarm example above), we are talking about tact and wisdom of choosing when to question and how. The internet is absolutely no exception to this, and those who say "well the internet allows us to air our opinions anonymously" etc are in my opinion just hiding behind their screens. There is a difference in not wanting to be known because you care more about what is being spoken of than the personalities behind it, and posting inflammatory statements directed at certain persons (especially respected elders!) and then when "called out" not responding with the honor and integrity required of your martial arts heritage to answer the challenges! There is also the issue of "chain of command". Perhaps certain people's hands are tied because their sifu does not want them to reveal who they are. This is different from those who do not even consult their sifu when posting on important matters such as the ones that have been slung carelessly around this (public!) forum recently! If I were to post something of such significance, you can bet your a$$ that I would consult my sifu first! NOT because I'm some kind of "mind-controlled slave", mind you, but 1) out of respect and tradition, and 2) because I am humble enough to realize that I may not have all the d@mn answers and could not see some of the far-reaching consequences my reckless actions could cause! Think about it...
in addition, as some have already said, you can (and will!) be held responsible for your actions and statements, as well as your sifu! are you willing to risk such things for speculation? even on "the net"? this is yet another reason to consult your sifu, because if decorum, tradition, and respect are not enough, you are putting it "on the line" every time you open your mouth (or type your post, as the case may be) for both yourself and your sifu, and in a larger sense, your entire gung-fu family!
Think of these things as you go about your business, whether it be the business of your daily routine, or the business of airing matters on a public forum. don't turn around and point the finger at others saying "well what about him/her?", but yet look to yourself, because in the end, as another has already said, "we are all our own masters".

[TIDAL]

To answer the question as to how many forms Choy Lay Fut Buk Sing contains here is a list:
- 3 Choy Lay Fut Buk Sing forms
- 3 Chow Gar Hand forms/ 1 Chow gar staff form
- Northern Shaolin no.6 and 8
- Northern Shaolin Sword form
- Spear form
- 3piece sectional staff form
- and if you hang around the school for about 10 years youll probably learn drunken


Hopefully that helps


TIDAL

[Serpent]

Is that a standard curriculum for Buk Sing schools globally?

[nospam]

No. It taint.

You will find varying influences and curriculums at almost any kwoon.

I'm a Canadian Bak Hsing playa - we have a basic 4 fist patterns with one Bak Sil Lum and a variety of weapons. Fighting is the main emphasis..

nospam.

[Fu-Pow]

Regulator-

It's very obvious to see that your comments are a thinly veiled attack on me. Once again you've ingratiated yourself to Dave Lacey and insured that you'll recieve some quotation on his website.

But you've just proven my point. You can't think for yourself.

Whatever you or others may think of me, I still maintain that the anonymity of this forum has allowed things to come to the surface that might not have under other circumstances. Some might think this is good, some might consider it bad. That is very subjective viewpoint.

This forum can either be a good or bad thing depending on the intention of the participants. Fortunately for you, my intention has always been to engage in thoughtful and provoking discussion.
If others wish to censor this kind of discussion (ie Dave Lacey) by making things "personal", well it's just too bad. I won't bite.

We live in a very small world now with the invention of the internet. It is hard to make up stories or propagate an incorrect history without someone calling you out on it. This is the world we live in. Get used to it.

As for being a "representative "for my Sifu I have never made that claim. Being the "critical thinker" that you are you should be able to realize that the views of the student are not always the views of the teacher. But then again, that might be beyond your capability.

[regulator]

Fu Pow-
i make no "thinly veiled attacks" against you. on the contrary, i freely admit that my previous post was directed primarily at you, and anyone else who displays this same sort of behavior.
you are justyfing some of the things you have done by playing the victim- poor Fu Pow, victimized by Dave Lacey. poor Fu Pow, who was only trying to find "the truth". poor Fu Pow, who had only honest intent at heart when he insulted Master Lacey's own blood. poor Fu Pow, who posts a "thinly veiled attack" at others on the foe-room on this very same thread, and then is amazed when someone responds in turn.
Surely, you are the "misunderstood" good guy here, right Fu Pow?

don't use the pretense of "free thinking" as an excuse. you should realize that your actions reflect on your sifu and family. whether you like it or not. you ARE a representative of your sifu Fu Pow, and that's how it is! in truth, i have never met nor do i personally know Master Lacey. the comments i make are not "dictated" to me by him or any of his students, nor have i ever corresponded with him or his students. the things i say are my thoughts alone.

you said "the anonymity of this forum has allowed things to come to the surface that might not have under other circumstances"

while this statement is true, and i agree that this has come to pass, don't try to pull the wool over our eyes by playing the innocent victim here again. this same sort of argument could be used by, for example, the snipers who had a rampage in the united states recently. indeed, their "anonymity" allowed things to come to the surface that might not have under other circumstances! (don't twist my words around and say i am accusing you of being a sniper or terrorist of some sort, this was merely an example to expand upon your anonymity points)
so, while your much-touted anonymity has it's uses, the reality of the situation is that you do not remain anonymous because you have been asked to by your sifu or elders, nor do you remain anonymous because you do not wish to draw attention to yourself because of your modest heart... you hide under a MASK of anonymity because you are AFRAID to face people face to face when you hurl your accusations. this is the difference i was pointing out in my previous post.
regarding your comment that "It is hard to make up stories or propagate an incorrect history without someone calling you out on it.", i completely concur! but let's be honest here Fu Pow... who has done the "calling out"? it's not you, as anyone who reads both sides of the scenario can clearly see.
one last thing Fu Pow... i'm not really following your line of thought when you say "If others wish to censor this kind of discussion (ie Dave Lacey) by making things "personal", well it's just too bad. I won't bite."
how exactly is "making things personal" a form of censorship?
you lost me on that one.

[tparkerkfo]

Hey you two,

Take your BS else where. You guys have several threads to *****. We can discuss issues without taking lineage shots. Go rant on a differnt thread please.

Others,

Thanks for your information. I would think most Schools would have a similar core set, but as people are different, other stuff would creep in from what ever expereince. From what you guys said, Bak Sing has fewer forms than some other lineages and that they focus on fighting more that forms. Good stuff.

I might be going to Tat Mau Wong's tourny this weekend in SF. If I go, I hope to see some good choy li fut as well as hung gar and other styles.

Tom
________
Maryjane

[yik-wah-tik]

sorry for messing up your name but i am dino salvateras student and am a sifu under him and now live in antioch, ca less than 60 miles from you. if you wanted to learn some of lau buns hsclf let contact me thru our website hungsing.com
we can hook up sometime.
call me i will go with you to the tat mau tourney.

frank

[alecM]

tparkerkfo
If your going to watch some CLF in competition try to see if the schools have entered only in the fighting or the forms (some school only do forms because thy can’t fight) or if the school has entered people in both categories because in my opinion a good school should be able to use the CLF fists and footwork in competition and not fight like a kick boxer. Personally, I hope you do see some good CLF.

setansi & choyleefutman
I’m not an claming to be an expert in Chinese culture but I believe it was not that uncommon for kung fu masters to have their sons first taught by their best students.

[tparkerkfo]

Hello yik-wah-tik.

Thanks for the info. I had a VERY hard choice of martial arts and styles to study under. I am not studying CLF or planing on it anytime soon. But I do respect it very much and would love to have friends in the style. I had a small chance to study what I think may have been Hung Sing or Buk Sing Choy li Fut. Their is a guy in Sonoma in the north bay that taught. I didn't know much and figured he didn't have the full info. Probably a mistake on my part. I am currently happy learning Hung Gar, from the YC Wong lineage(from a student of his, not directly from Wong sigung). I would love to attend an event with you guys though. Do you still go to Marysville?

I have a sihing who studied at Lau Bun's school in china town. I beleive he is Doc Fai Wong's sihing. not sure the relation to Dino Difu though. he is in one of the photos on the hungsing.com web site in the '71 Chinatown photo.


alacM,
I like both fighting and forms. They are part of a whole. I think many people misunderstand forms and either focus too much on the form and forget the fighting, or they focus on the fighting and don't pay much attention to the forms. I think both are very important. Lee Koon Hung was good at forms and fighting, for example. I am not sure if I am going, but hopefully I will see a little of both.

Tom
________
Yamaha v-max history

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by regulator
Fu Pow-
i make no "thinly veiled attacks" against you. on the contrary, i freely admit that my previous post was directed primarily at you, and anyone else who displays this same sort of behavior.
you are justyfing some of the things you have done by playing the victim- poor Fu Pow, victimized by Dave Lacey. poor Fu Pow, who was only trying to find "the truth".

I don't claim to be a victim, but I will not sit by and let my role be defined by some one else.

poor Fu Pow, who had only honest intent at heart when he insulted Master Lacey's own blood.

Obviously that was joke. Kung Fu guys don't have to be all serious regulator. Why don't you take a laxative and laugh once in a while?

poor Fu Pow, who posts a "thinly veiled attack" at others on the foe-room on this very same thread, and then is amazed when someone responds in turn.
Surely, you are the "misunderstood" good guy here, right Fu Pow?

Wasn't targeted directly at you but the other demon spawn as well.

don't use the pretense of "free thinking" as an excuse. you should realize that your actions reflect on your sifu and family. whether you like it or not. you ARE a representative of your sifu Fu Pow, and that's how it is! in truth, i have never met nor do i personally know Master Lacey. the comments i make are not "dictated" to me by him or any of his students, nor have i ever corresponded with him or his students. the things i say are my thoughts alone.

I noticed by your name that you have posted here a total of 22 times. You obviously have not followed this thing from the beginning and so really have know knowledge of what was said and wasn't said. And yet you go on ad nauseum about how righteous Dave Lacey is and what a ****nut I am? Obviously you have some political affiliation.

you said "the anonymity of this forum has allowed things to come to the surface that might not have under other circumstances"

while this statement is true, and i agree that this has come to pass, don't try to pull the wool over our eyes by playing the innocent victim here again.

Again, not a victim but I won't sit idly by and let people attack me. What do you expect. Remember Dave Lacey attacked first. Not the other way around.

this same sort of argument could be used by, for example, the snipers who had a rampage in the united states recently. indeed, their "anonymity" allowed things to come to the surface that might not have under other circumstances! (don't twist my words around and say i am accusing you of being a sniper or terrorist of some sort, this was merely an example to expand upon your anonymity points)

That's a poorly reasoned argument. We're not talking about killing people here, we're talking about history. It's apples and oranges.

so, while your much-touted anonymity has it's uses, the reality of the situation is that you do not remain anonymous because you have been asked to by your sifu or elders, nor do you remain anonymous because you do not wish to draw attention to yourself because of your modest heart... you hide under a MASK of anonymity because you are AFRAID to face people face to face when you hurl your accusations. this is the difference i was pointing out in my previous post.

Please tell me what accusations I have hurled. You claim that I try portray myself as a victim, you would rather portray me as an "accuser"? Your portrayal has no merit. If you had any clue as to the history of this arguing you would know what was up. Ignorance must be bliss.

Trust me I'm not afraid of much. But I'm politically savvy enough not to walk into an ambush.

regarding your comment that "It is hard to make up stories or propagate an incorrect history without someone calling you out on it.", i completely concur! but let's be honest here Fu Pow... who has done the "calling out"? it's not you, as anyone who reads both sides of the scenario can clearly see.
one last thing Fu Pow... i'm not really following your line of thought when you say "If others wish to censor this kind of discussion (ie Dave Lacey) by making things "personal", well it's just too bad. I won't bite."
how exactly is "making things personal" a form of censorship?
you lost me on that one.

Dave Lacey wants to adhere to tradition in these matters. I'm saying where has that tradition gotten us? We're all divided up and infighting. If we give these issues room to breathe on an anonymous forum like this then perhaps we can move toward some kind of resolution. Instead Dave Lacey would prefer to make this political. It's not really the political. The students on this forum just want the truth about the history of their art. That is all we've ever wanted from the beginning. Dave Lacey does not want to see this happen....his reasons allude me.

[regulator]

Fu Pow,
because the originator of this thread has asked us to take it "elsewhere", which you OBVIOUSLY ignored, i'm going to take the high road here and not dignify your post with a response other than this.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by regulator
Fu Pow,
because the originator of this thread has asked us to take it "elsewhere", which you OBVIOUSLY ignored, i'm going to take the high road here and not dignify your post with a response other than this.

Way to avoid the subject, regulator. You could always take it somewhere else.