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Thread: Kung-Fu Schools & Ground fighting

  1. #31
    I don't wanna find myself rolling around on the ground with some gorilla, and thinking "D@mn, I kinda wish I'd studied a little more grappling/groundfighting" right before I hear my own neck snap.

    It's fine to say, "I do my fighting standing up" right up until you find yourself on your ass. Then you just have to suck it up and deal, and better to have the tools available.

    The moment they ask us to choose between two different paths, the implicit message is that we can only follow one. -Daniele Bolelli, On The Warrior’s Path

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by yutyeesam View Post
    lol says the mma mod!

    by the way oso - how did you become a mod? not that you aren't deserving! just wondering what torture and tribunals gene put you through for him to deem you worthy to breathe in his direction???????
    you've heard of waterboarding, right?


    now, think about it w/ nacho cheese sauce...
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  3. #33
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    The reality is, if you are teaching kung fu as COMBATIVES, you need groundwork. Hitting the ground is a reality, falling down is a reality, getting thrown and landed on is a reality, and getting stomped while down is a reality. If you never practice those scenarios in a controlled environment, you can't expect to pull it off for rizzle.

    BJJ is not the only ground system in the world, but it's probably the most sophisticated, and right now it's pretty available, so it's the logical choice to use as your base.

    Once you establish a good base (Blue Belt level or so), you can modify the curriculum and fit it into your system. Just don't try to pass it off as Shaolin Groundfighting™.

    If you are teaching an "art," you can stick with the standard CMA curriculum and show traditional applications, but you should preface the discusssions with historically contextual information about why you are spending so much time learning how to kick someone who doesn't want to follow you to the ground, etc.

    I can't imagine EVER training under someone again who hasn't taken groundfighting seriously enough to address it, even if it's just by having a separate program run by another instructor.
    Last edited by MasterKiller; 02-24-2009 at 07:23 AM.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by yutyeesam View Post
    Does your Kung-Fu school incorporate ground fighting? If so, how? Is it a separate (BJJ) class/program? Or is it integrated into the curriculum? Does the head teacher teach it, or is there a separate instructor who specializes in it teaching? If the latter, is the head teacher training in it?

    If it is being integrated into the curriculum, does the teacher go straight into submissions (say after a takedown/throw), or does the teacher start from the ground basics and teach progressively how to roll?

    I'm just curious to know how Kung-Fu schools are adapting to this. I've seen a Shaolin-Do school contract a BJJ school's instructor to have a program in the school.
    We practice ground fighting in our style that is traditional and has no connection to BJJ or MMA.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokhopkuen View Post
    We practice ground fighting in our style that is traditional and has no connection to BJJ or MMA.
    What is an example guard pass you use?

    What is an example of a half-guard pass you use?

    How do you escape from a knee-on-belly mount?
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

  6. #36
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    We have not done ground fighting yet...but I would like to learn some.

    Can anyone post any examples (either video, or other sources) of ground fighting that you use in school?

    Thanks

  7. #37
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    In the world we live in today, to NOT take advantage of specialized systems of H2H combat is just silly.
    Very few systems deal with ground work as well as BJJ, you just have to find a teacher that deals with the WHOLE aspect of ground work and not just the grappling aspect, including weapons and ground work.
    Psalms 144:1
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    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    What is an example guard pass you use?

    What is an example of a half-guard pass you use?

    How do you escape from a knee-on-belly mount?
    Well we don't subscribe to the terminology you are using nor or we sport oriented.
    In a supine mounted position we use seizing and grappling techniques similar to stand up with emphasis on dominating the wrist, elbow, shoulder, neck and torso control points (controlling three knots), using the shoulders and hips as the root base. Forgive me if my words do not paint the clearest of pictures for you.

    As far as "knee on belly mount" I have yet to end up in that position but it sounds interesting.

    Working against the shoot I've had great success redirecting the hands and arms (when the attacker uses his weight ballistically intending to hobble or uproot), setting root and using stance transition to root to turn the shoulder and neck using the impetus forces against would-be shooter. Traditional stance work training has paid off in spades as has mobility in stance-transition-stance during pre and post engagement.

    In recent experience big thick guys have mostly tried the glory shot punch in the mouth, smaller thick guys almost always try for a shoot. I expect everything and nothing keeping ready for all things. This play usually jumps off when I am intervening in protection of a principle or secondary client or during egress whilst disengaging from a trouble source.

    Since this ground fighting craze erupted I've become quite fond of following my target to the ground with specialized finishing technique seeking an emphasis on incapacitation, immobilization via treading, shooting arrow or purposeful falling with foot, knees and hips directed to tender and vital points followed by arresting (seizing) techniques. Most recent encounters have been multiple assailant and I hate getting my designer suits dirty or torn so I'm big on efficiency.

    Also I don't play fair. MK 8 pepper spray, green laser, super bright LED Flashlights with weighted handles, body armor with trauma plates and gloves with carbon fiber knuckles have given my team and I the edge. Keep in mind I'm working lots of EP details these days.

    I got a chance to play friendly with some of the Machado Brothers years ago and I respect their BJJ. Truthfully I'd rather wrassle a full grown anaconda than one of them bros. Unfortunately my recent experiences with these types of fighters and others were not friendly matches but instead on the job. Most of these opponents displayed a divergence between what it was they wanted to happen as opposed to what was really going on.

    If i attribute my work group's success to any one component I'd say just it's remaining in the moment mentally.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    In the world we live in today, to NOT take advantage of specialized systems of H2H combat is just silly.
    Very few systems deal with ground work as well as BJJ, you just have to find a teacher that deals with the WHOLE aspect of ground work and not just the grappling aspect, including weapons and ground work.
    Well said.
    To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders.
    -Patanjali Samadhi


    "Not engaging in ignorance is wisdom."
    ~ Bodhi


    Never miss a good chance to shut up

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokhopkuen View Post
    We practice ground fighting in our style that is traditional and has no connection to BJJ or MMA.
    Interesting. Would you say that all the other schools that practice your style, which from your sig is Northern Shaolim (did you mean ShaoliN with an "N"?) all know how to do this, and it is standardized?

    In other words, I could go to 10 Northern Shaolim (?) schools around the country and all the teachers would know and be adept in this form of groundfighting?

    I only ask because it seems that if only one school of a style does it, that usually indicates that it is either not in the standard curriculum or the teacher is taking things from the outside and incorporating it. Nothing wrong with that at all - but I'm a bit skeptical when people say the CMA's have groundfighting strategies that are similar to BJJ...so, I'm just cross referencing.

    it almost leads to what bawang was saying earlier:

    "except in 10 years not call it ju jit su but crouching panther tanglang taiji shaolin emei wudang quan traditional chinese ground kung fu!!! bjj ? gracie who? no we had this for thousands of years OMG YES LOLO"
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    And it doesn't hurt to practice stuff from:
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by yutyeesam View Post
    I only ask because it seems that if only one school of a style does it, that usually indicates that it is either not in the standard curriculum or the teacher is taking things from the outside and incorporating it. Nothing wrong with that at all - but I'm a bit skeptical when people say the CMA's have groundfighting strategies that are similar to BJJ...so, I'm just cross referencing."

    History just does not support the idea of ANY CMA having a detailed ground curriculum. CMA techniques almost always address situations in which the attacker is standing over a downed opponent.

    While you can argue CMA techniques CAN be applied on the ground, the fact is, until recently, no one cared to do so extensively.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    History just does not support the idea of ANY CMA having a detailed ground curriculum. CMA techniques almost always address situations in which the attacker is standing over a downed opponent.

    While you can argue CMA techniques CAN be applied on the ground, the fact is, until recently, no one cared to do so extensively.
    The most you'd probably fine would be, at best, categorized as "ground and pound".
    Certainly many of the chin-na locks can be applied while on the ground, but a dedicated ground curriculum in CMA is harder to find that a woman that will let you make her your "angry pirate".
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violent Designs View Post

    Why are all CMA guys incorporating BJJ into their curriculum?
    I think i can kind of answer this.

    Kungfu has always been about combat. The birthings of chinese arts are through warfare. Mass scale, weapons, bows, horses, etc. eventually the many empty handed arts developed. but throughout it all kungfu has always been about combat, and being able to defeat what ever opponent may be in front of you. at all costs, take all comers.

    now days SOOO many men are learning the more fine tuned arts of grappling. A lot of guys wrestle, but with the modern BJJ CRAZE, a lot of cats are getting down and rolling.

    being a kungfu guy, you naturally want to be able to defend yourself in any situation. at least thats the goal

    if grappling/bjj is so popular and continues to be so, more and more guys learn it, means more of a chance you will encounter guys who know how to grapple.

    picking up some form of grappling is just a continuation of the natural progression and evolution of your martial arts.

    no martial artists wants to get his ass handed to him cuz he faild to devote a few years to learn how to ground fight.
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by yutyeesam View Post
    Makes sense, and I agree! Why don't you like it?
    i just have no interest in it, it doesn't do anything for me. same thing with karate, i respect it. it just doesn't do anything for me. i like kung fu better.

    kung fu guys should practice those stances more that they neglect so much. if you have a strong of enough base and know how to use them, you will be very hard to move. or so said an ancient Chinese man
    Last edited by Shaolinlueb; 02-24-2009 at 10:21 AM.
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    Genes too busy rocking the gang and scarfing down bags of cheetos while beating it to nacho ninjettes and laughing at the ridiculous posts on the kfforum. In a horse stance of course.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaolinlueb View Post
    i just have no interest in it, it doesn't do anything for me. same thing with karate, i respect it. it just doesn't do anything for me. i like kung fu better.

    kung fu guys should practice those stances more that they neglect so much. if you have a strong of enough base and know how to use them, you will be very hard to move. or so said an ancient Chinese man
    how can one expect to stay on their feet, if they dont even know how to stand well.
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

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