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Thread: Kung-Fu Schools & Ground fighting

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    Groundfighting, in the sense of BJJ/Sambo/Judo, is really more about positional dominance than anything else. Ditang, while training flexibility and break-falling, does little to address how to control positions.
    I agree with you sortta and please don't mistake my statements as contentious.
    I love all martial art from a very deep place and it seems we are so often misunderstood on these forums.

    Ditang actually encompasses the same elements you outlined above plus some other THANGS but they are taught differently and categorized stylistically counter to BJJ systems. Same jive different speak as it were. Some people who've actually been taught some of these have also been taught not to talk about them openly.
    (The Bullshido types will yell fake because they just bate a candidate victum so that they might grab some spilt beans dropped in an emotional moment. )
    Some never learned them because their teacher either didn't know or didn't tell.
    Fact is in our school it was just one of those things that came up on a day when a bunch of old hands were around and Sifu felt like expanding on it.
    Many of you may think you know the English translation for Bak Siu Lum but you really don't.


    Wanna know a secret?

    It really translates as Scholarly Down and Dirty Chinese Fighting (Kidding sortta)
    All martial art is like a beautiful flower that keeps on blooming and gets more ever beautiful the closer you examine it.

    He who speaks does not know, he who knows does not speak.- Old Chinese Saying designed to Chin na your ego and make you STFU.
    To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders.
    -Patanjali Samadhi


    "Not engaging in ignorance is wisdom."
    ~ Bodhi


    Never miss a good chance to shut up

  2. #62
    He who speaks does not know, he who knows does not speak.- Old Chinese Saying designed to Chin na your ego and make you STFU.
    ---------------------

    I kinda like that... but the problem is, if nobody speaks, nobody LEARNS anything.

    The moment they ask us to choose between two different paths, the implicit message is that we can only follow one. -Daniele Bolelli, On The Warrior’s Path

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    The most you'd probably fine would be, at best, categorized as "ground and pound".
    Certainly many of the chin-na locks can be applied while on the ground, but a dedicated ground curriculum in CMA is harder to find that a woman that will let you make her your "angry pirate".
    I'm starting to see that you might actually know your shizzle
    To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders.
    -Patanjali Samadhi


    "Not engaging in ignorance is wisdom."
    ~ Bodhi


    Never miss a good chance to shut up

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taryn P. View Post
    He who speaks does not know, he who knows does not speak.- Old Chinese Saying designed to Chin na your ego and make you STFU.
    ---------------------

    I kinda like that... but the problem is, if nobody speaks, nobody LEARNS anything.
    Yea.

    I love me some tricky Chinese! Why some of my best friends are......

    ROTFLMAO!!!!
    To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders.
    -Patanjali Samadhi


    "Not engaging in ignorance is wisdom."
    ~ Bodhi


    Never miss a good chance to shut up

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokhopkuen View Post
    I'm starting to see that you might actually know your shizzle
    I bow to you my liege
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by yutyeesam View Post
    Cool. Yeah, I'm not even worried about the pure Kung-Fu aspect of it. Again, Kung-Fu means skill. And it looks like you guys trained to work from the ground, ie, a skill.

    BTW, you're the second person who said "When I trained in Wing Chun..."
    Just thought that was interesting.
    It's a long story but I don't really do kung-fu anymore as in traditional training since I wasn't able to find a comparable style in my neighborhood though I still practice techniques solo and spar with a Kempo guy in my neighborhood then I'm actually 6 months into BJJ now. It is what it is.....

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Lokhopkuen View Post
    Ditang actually encompasses the same elements you outlined above plus some other THANGS but they are taught differently and categorized stylistically counter to BJJ systems. Same jive different speak as it were. Some people who've actually been taught some of these have also been taught not to talk about them openly.
    (The Bullshido types will yell fake because they just bate a candidate victum so that they might grab some spilt beans dropped in an emotional moment. )
    Some never learned them because their teacher either didn't know or didn't tell.
    Fact is in our school it was just one of those things that came up on a day when a bunch of old hands were around and Sifu felt like expanding on it.
    Many of you may think you know the English translation for Bak Siu Lum but you really don't.


    Wanna know a secret?

    It really translates as Scholarly Down and Dirty Chinese Fighting (Kidding sortta)
    All martial art is like a beautiful flower that keeps on blooming and gets more ever beautiful the closer you examine it.

    He who speaks does not know, he who knows does not speak.- Old Chinese Saying designed to Chin na your ego and make you STFU.
    No- I'll have to agree with Earth Dragon on this. Any groundfighting that resembles wrestling or BJJ as a positional game that's been added to the CMA is new and a direct result of the success of BJJ and wrestling in MMA. I'd say we're fooling ourselves if we'd say otherwise. Modern Kung Fu isn't battlefield KF- it's scholarly kung fu and is suited for dueling. It had rules of conduct and was governed by a specific cultural mores.

    Lately- there has been such an interest in MMA that CMA had to adapt/ has to adapt to their game.

  8. #68
    funny thing is we now call it MMA (mixed martial arts) my system 8 step praying mantis which is around 350 years old is comprised of 18 different styles.
    it just doesnt include jujitsu, but now it does... does that make it a kung fu style or a MMA?????
    KUNG FU USA
    www.eightstepkungfu.com
    Teaching traditional Ba Bu Tang Lang (Eight Step Praying Mantis)
    Jin Gon Tzu Li Gung (Medical) Qigong
    Wu style Taiji Chuan



    Teacher always told his students, "You need to have Wude, patient, tolerance, humble, ..." When he died, his last words to his students was, "Remember that the true meaning of TCMA is fierce, poison, and kill."

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by EarthDragon View Post
    funny thing is we now call it MMA (mixed martial arts) my system 8 step praying mantis which is around 350 years old is comprised of 18 different styles.
    it just doesnt include jujitsu, but now it does... does that make it a kung fu style or a MMA?????
    The vast majority of ALL TMA are "mixed MA".
    To be a true traditionalist you would be a "mixed martial artist".
    Granted it helps to know WHICH systems to mix, LOL !
    No man is an island, and no MA system is one either.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  10. #70
    exaclty! this is my point....... why all the arugments about tradional vs MMA if indeed they are all mixed? some people ask me if I teach MMA. they come see a class and wonder wheres the BJJ? you gotta laugh at ignorance sometimes.
    KUNG FU USA
    www.eightstepkungfu.com
    Teaching traditional Ba Bu Tang Lang (Eight Step Praying Mantis)
    Jin Gon Tzu Li Gung (Medical) Qigong
    Wu style Taiji Chuan



    Teacher always told his students, "You need to have Wude, patient, tolerance, humble, ..." When he died, his last words to his students was, "Remember that the true meaning of TCMA is fierce, poison, and kill."

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by EarthDragon View Post
    exaclty! this is my point....... why all the arugments about tradional vs MMA if indeed they are all mixed? some people ask me if I teach MMA. they come see a class and wonder wheres the BJJ? you gotta laugh at ignorance sometimes.
    One of the reasons I don't call what I do "MMA", even though it "technically" is, is because MMA is not the term used for the SPORT of MMA.
    Best to call it "martial arts" or Total Fighting or whatever you like, but MMA is basically a "trademark" name for the sport of MMA.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by EarthDragon View Post
    funny thing is we now call it MMA (mixed martial arts) my system 8 step praying mantis which is around 350 years old is comprised of 18 different styles.
    it just doesnt include jujitsu, but now it does... does that make it a kung fu style or a MMA?????
    No- I'd say that is in the true spirit of a Mantis style- but you don't pretend that the jujitsu existed in the style- you absorbed it and hopefully applied mantis methodology to it.

    But where I have a problem is in this failure of a lot of CMA instructors and schools to acknowledge where their groundfighting root came from. I do have a problem with that. I find it ethnocentric and a bit hypocritical. We're supposed to honor our masters---

    Anyway- there's nothing wrong with incorporating groundfighting- I think we all should, but I think we should also acknowledge where our groundfighting base came from.

    Mine's straight up Judo-Newaza with a mantis twist.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    The vast majority of ALL TMA are "mixed MA".
    To be a true traditionalist you would be a "mixed martial artist".
    Granted it helps to know WHICH systems to mix, LOL !
    No man is an island, and no MA system is one either.
    We all know there is a fundamental difference between mixing 34 striking styles and mixing a striking + a grappling style.

    MMA, in the understood context, relates to training mixed ranges, not mixed styles.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    We all know there is a fundamental difference between mixing 34 striking styles and mixing a striking + a grappling style.

    MMA, in the understood context, relates to training mixed ranges, not mixed styles.
    An excellent point.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    No- I'll have to agree with Earth Dragon on this. Any groundfighting that resembles wrestling or BJJ as a positional game that's been added to the CMA is new and a direct result of the success of BJJ and wrestling in MMA. I'd say we're fooling ourselves if we'd say otherwise. Modern Kung Fu isn't battlefield KF- it's scholarly kung fu and is suited for dueling. It had rules of conduct and was governed by a specific cultural mores.

    Lately- there has been such an interest in MMA that CMA had to adapt/ has to adapt to their game.
    Opps;
    Guess you've never met my teacher there in "Michigan"....
    The discussions I'm referring to were over 20 years ago so eerrrr we weren't adapting to anything called BJJ bud. As I recall one of my classmates had recounted a mat session with a Greco Roman player which started said discussion.

    Traditional Bak Siu Lum is built on "4 hits", "8 Skills" and "12 Methods".
    4 Hits= punch, kick, seize, throw. In the throws are contained De tan, "Falling with purpose" (ground fighting) and it's a bit like tangling with a gorilla. (great ape)
    Next time try to actually read my post before pasting me in your non-relevant responses.

    This is where I smile slyly and STFU.
    To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders.
    -Patanjali Samadhi


    "Not engaging in ignorance is wisdom."
    ~ Bodhi


    Never miss a good chance to shut up

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