Kung-Fu Schools & Ground fighting

[MightyB]

Opps;
Guess you've never met my teacher there in "Michigan"....
The discussions I'm referring to were over 20 years ago so eerrrr we weren't adapting to anything called BJJ bud. As I recall one of my classmates had recounted a mat session with a Greco Roman player which started said discussion.

Traditional Bak Siu Lum is built on "4 hits", "8 Skills" and "12 Methods".
4 Hits= punch, kick, seize, throw. In the throws are contained De tan, "Falling with purpose" (ground fighting) and it's a bit like tangling with a gorilla. (great ape)
Next time try to actually read my post before pasting me in your non-relevant responses.

This is where I smile slyly and STFU.

Fine- find me a pre-1985 documented reference to groundfighting as we know encompassed in CMA... and not Ditang 'cuz that t'aint groundfighting.

[TenTigers]

Joi Bot Sien, Eight Drunken Immortals, the actual sets from styles such as CLF, LAMA, Seven Star Mantis, etc, not the wu-shu,shaolin,etc varieties, contained suplexes, sweeps, throws, sacrifice throws, armbars, triangle, that superman back arch thingy, and other techniques you see in ne-waza. It's not a comprehensive text, but contains a good set of core basics.
Once you look beyond the drunken movements and theatrics, you have some solid techniques. It's in there, but for the most part-all you see today are the theatrics. The older, traditional versions are rarely seen. I guess they're not really "crowd-pleasers."

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fine- find me a pre-1985 documented reference to groundfighting as we know encompassed in CMA... and not Ditang 'cuz that t'aint groundfighting.

Tim Cartmell translated a book on practical Chin-na that showed ground grappling.
It was pre WW2 I think.
It had the guard, RNC, arm bars and much more.
All borrowed from Judo of course

[MightyB]

Joi Bot Sien, Eight Drunken Immortals, the actual sets from styles such as CLF, LAMA, Seven Star Mantis, etc, not the wu-shu,shaolin,etc varieties, contained suplexes, sweeps, throws, sacrifice throws, armbars, triangle, that superman back arch thingy, and other techniques you see in ne-waza. It's not a comprehensive text, but contains a good set of core basics.
Once you look beyond the drunken movements and theatrics, you have some solid techniques. It's in there, but for the most part-all you see today are the theatrics. The older, traditional versions are rarely seen. I guess they're not really "crowd-pleasers."

I thought the same thing after I started learning Judo - I had previously learned Joi Bot Sien. I asked and even demonstrated a couple of the coincidences at the KF school, but that's all they were... coincidences. The sacrifice throw is a sacrifice throw though-

One thing that you gotta realize is even NeWaza is more NeWaza today than it was when Kano created Judo.

[MightyB]

Opps;
Guess you've never met my teacher there in "Michigan"....
The discussions I'm referring to were over 20 years ago so eerrrr we weren't adapting to anything called BJJ bud. As I recall one of my classmates had recounted a mat session with a Greco Roman player which started said discussion.

Traditional Bak Siu Lum is built on "4 hits", "8 Skills" and "12 Methods".
4 Hits= punch, kick, seize, throw. In the throws are contained De tan, "Falling with purpose" (ground fighting) and it's a bit like tangling with a gorilla. (great ape)
Next time try to actually read my post before pasting me in your non-relevant responses.

This is where I smile slyly and STFU.

coming back to this- what you did is adapt the style to a situation. You were able to do that which is good, but the precursor was a response to a Greco Roman Wrestler... it wasn't a core set of drills and techniques that have been passed down and practiced as a system of Chinese ground wrestling.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I thought the same thing after I started learning Judo - I had previously learned Joi Bot Sien. I asked and even demonstrated a couple of the coincidences at the KF school, but that's all they were... coincidences. The sacrifice throw is a sacrifice throw though-

One thing that you gotta realize is even NeWaza is more NeWaza today than it was when Kano created Judo.

Some have argued that it is a return to the judo before Kano changed it.
Irrelevant in reality, Ground work is many different things to different people in different circumstances.

[MasterKiller]

Fine- find me a pre-1985 documented reference to groundfighting as we know encompassed in CMA... and not Ditang 'cuz that t'aint groundfighting.

national methods of self-defense, 1936

That being said, this was probably borrowed from jiu-jitsu.

[sanjuro_ronin]

national methods of self-defense, 1936

That being said, this was probably borrowed from jiu-jitsu.

Ahem:
http://www.amazon.com/Chin-Tradition...588755&sr=8-10

[MasterKiller]

Ahem:
http://www.amazon.com/Chin-Tradition...588755&sr=8-10

Yeah, so what? The techniques in that book probably come from jiu-jitsu as well. There is no evidence of these techniques in CMA pre-dating teh Sino-Japanese conflicts.

[lkfmdc]

national methods of self-defense, 1936

That being said, this was probably borrowed from jiu-jitsu.

AND

Tim Cartmell translated a book on practical Chin-na that showed ground grappling.
It was pre WW2 I think.
It had the guard, RNC, arm bars and much more.
All borrowed from Judo of course

As we can still see from attitudes on this very board, some in TCMA are afraid to admit outside influences, but there is little doubt, even less debate that Judo (or "Kano Jiu Jitsu" if you know that argument LOL) had a profound impact upon CMA in the 20th Century (Just as western boxing did!)

But what is significant, is that while a few tried to learn ground fighting, by far the majority only embraced the outside techniques through the same old methodology of form, compliant practice, or just plain teaching the technique in isolation with no live practice.

If you simply lie on your back, put a guy between your legs and grab his wrist, you have NOT learned how to use the guard!

[Taryn P.]

If you simply lie on your back, put a guy between your legs and grab his wrist, you have NOT learned how to use the guard!

The mind positively reels with vulger smart@ss comebacks.

[MasterKiller]

The mind positively reels with vulger smart@ss comebacks.

Bikini pics first.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah, so what? The techniques in that book probably come from jiu-jitsu as well. There is no evidence of these techniques in CMA pre-dating teh Sino-Japanese conflicts.

I mentioned that before, as Ross points out.

[MasterKiller]

I mentioned that before, as Ross points out.

You want a cookie or somethin'?

[sanjuro_ronin]

AND



As we can still see from attitudes on this very board, some in TCMA are afraid to admit outside influences, but there is little doubt, even less debate that Judo (or "Kano Jiu Jitsu" if you know that argument LOL) had a profound impact upon CMA in the 20th Century (Just as western boxing did!)

But what is significant, is that while a few tried to learn ground fighting, by far the majority only embraced the outside techniques through the same old methodology of form, compliant practice, or just plain teaching the technique in isolation with no live practice.

If you simply lie on your back, put a guy between your legs and grab his wrist, you have NOT learned how to use the guard!

No MA system or culture is immune from borrowing, especially during the times when winning a fight meant life and losing meant death.
Of course they would have borrowed it, why wouldn't they?
Why wouldn't we NOW?

As for

If you simply lie on your back, put a guy between your legs and grab his wrist, you have NOT learned how to use the guard!

That is a basic guard defense in classical Judo dealing with an armed attacker, within that context, it makes sense.
Take what is typically taught in guard work in modern sport BJJ and apply a knife in the attackers hand or withing reaching distance and many things done in sport would not be practical in that situation.