Page 1 of 17 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 241

Thread: 9, 18, 72, 108.

  1. #1

    Why in 3's?

    Why are so many techniques in the forms performed in 3's?

    Is there any significance to the number 3 in Chinese culture?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    St. Louis, MO USA
    Posts
    5,316
    Quote Originally Posted by Lugoman View Post
    Why are so many techniques in the forms performed in 3's?

    Is there any significance to the number 3 in Chinese culture?
    It's not about numeral significance, in my view. Rather, when movements are repeated three times in the forms, those movements are being singled out as being of particular importance (in some way). For example, if you consider the movements repeated three times in the SNT, the fook sao (controlling bridge hand) and the tuet sao (freeing bridge hand), the form is representing the importance of controlling the opponent's bridge and not allowing your bridge to be controlled.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    5,714
    From a Chimese Numerology website:

    The number "3" is used many times in Chinese culture. The only reason that I can think of is because it is mentioned in the I Ching, pronounced E Ching. It stands for Heaven, Earth and Man. When we bow to offer incense, it is always done three times. In bonsai and ikebana, the patterns follow an irregular triangle to represent the trinity of heaven, earth and man.

    By Don Gee
    www.chcp.org


    Might have something to do with it.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

    WC Academy BJJ/MMA Academy Surviving Violent Crime TCM Info
    Don't like my posts? Challenge me!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    731
    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    From a Chimese Numerology website:

    The number "3" is used many times in Chinese culture. The only reason that I can think of is because it is mentioned in the I Ching, pronounced E Ching. It stands for Heaven, Earth and Man. When we bow to offer incense, it is always done three times. In bonsai and ikebana, the patterns follow an irregular triangle to represent the trinity of heaven, earth and man.

    By Don Gee
    www.chcp.org


    Might have something to do with it.
    Otherwise known as Tin, Yan, and Dei respectively...

    Nice one Anerlich

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,655
    Going a bit off topic because of the bonsai and ikebana reference ... when displaying objects, it has been noted that groupings made up of odd numbers, e.g. 3, 5, 7 look better than even numbers of the same objects.

    The thing is, the numbers 1-9 are quite common in kung fu terms.

    1 - Yi Xian/ yat sin (one "centreline" is a particular WCK reference)
    2 - Liangyi (the two poles - yin & yang)
    4 - Sixiang (4 images)
    5 - Wuxing (Five Elements)
    6 - Liuhe / Luk Hop (6 Harmonies)
    7 - Xixing (Seven Stars)
    8 - Bagua (8 trigrams), Babu (8 Steps)
    9 - Jiu Gong (Nine palaces)
    Last edited by CFT; 04-26-2007 at 09:47 AM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Western NY, USA
    Posts
    1,672
    Adding a small nuance to what the others have said. While three can be taken literally, it can also suggest "many." My sibak explained it to me this way: When something is repeated 3 times in the sets as taught, do at least 3 and feel free to repeat as many more times as you wish.


    Regards,
    - Kathy Jo
    "It's all related." - me

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Jacksonville, FL
    Posts
    11
    Quote Originally Posted by kj View Post
    Adding a small nuance to what the others have said. While three can be taken literally, it can also suggest "many." My sibak explained it to me this way: When something is repeated 3 times in the sets as taught, do at least 3 and feel free to repeat as many more times as you wish.


    Regards,
    - Kathy Jo
    Thats what we were always taught. My sifu acknowledged the mystical significance of 3, but says really you just need more than one.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,655
    Quote Originally Posted by kj View Post
    Adding a small nuance to what the others have said. While three can be taken literally, it can also suggest "many." My sibak explained it to me this way: When something is repeated 3 times in the sets as taught, do at least 3 and feel free to repeat as many more times as you wish.
    Yes, sometimes my attention drifts and I wonder if it was 2 or 3? So I add another one to make sure!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Western NY, USA
    Posts
    1,672
    Quote Originally Posted by CFT View Post
    Yes, sometimes my attention drifts and I wonder if it was 2 or 3? So I add another one to make sure!
    Ha ha. Yup, we've a running joke that when you learn Wing Chun you forget how to count to 3.

    When you're really focused on what you're doing, it's easy to lose count. How great is that!?

    Regards,
    - Kathy Jo
    "It's all related." - me

  10. #10
    Thanks for the replies all, I've learned some things from this thread.

    I only lose count durring the tan/wu/fook sau part of SLM, when I do it slowly.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    New York, NY, USA
    Posts
    660
    Let's look at this from a practical standpoint:


    If you are going to give some indication of "repetition" (which is essentially, more than 2) If not 3 times, then how many? You pick.


    If you are from Southern China living in a time of superstition and speaking Cantonese, you might as well pick a number which is a hom-onym for the word: "live". That's far more amusing than picking another number such as 4 - a hom-onym for the word: "death".

    (Trivia: the count of "4" is used in my Baat Cham Doa set.)
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 04-27-2007 at 09:14 AM. Reason: put dashes in "hom-onym" to bypass a really stupid "virgin ears" word filter on this forum.
    When you control the hands and feet, there are no secrets.
    http://www.Moyyat.com

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    ohio
    Posts
    271
    I think Tom hit an important point, that 4 - 'Sae" was avoided due to it sounding like the word for kill - "Sart".

    Here is some Food for thought though. Does the fact that somethings are repeated in Modern WCK, really mean they are "more important than other things". So the Fook is more important than the Tan? or Tut Sau is more important than the Punch? or the Concept represented in the Tut sau more important than the Core WCK concepts embodied within the punch? To me, that makes little sence. So pound for pound Huen Sau is the most important idea found in the forms? as its repeated the most?

    The older versions of WCK you examine, you will see things, not simply repeated. THat actually is "wasted" band width. And for a system that talks so much about "Being the most efficient" - simply repeating something is goes against the essence of the system. And probably no more than superstition and for symetry, will things show up in groups of 3. And only in modern versions of the system are the simply repeated 3 times.

    If we look at older WCK methods, that use San Sik methods of preservation, or even the older versions of the Hand Forms, we can see things are almost never repeated. They are "Re-iterated". And in San Sik, something is peformed one time. And than you train it as many times as you want. Or you have 3 differant motions linked together, such as Tan, Pak, Gan, that are repeated once in the San Sik form.

    The face of WCK that we see today is differant than the face of WCK in the early 1900s. Which is differant to the face of WCK in the mid 1800s. In Fact WCK, in my understanding and research has gone through 6 or 7 differant dominant stages of evolution. The last 2 being H.K WCK, and then when H.K WCK made its way to America,Europe, and Canada. This is easy to understand though as the system is conceptual in nature. The Physical method of organizing material and preserving it, as well as manefesting the concepts for application, will change and grow, and is in the nature of the system to do so.

    B
    "i see thy nose, but not what dog to feed it to" othello

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    New York, NY, USA
    Posts
    660
    Quote Originally Posted by byond1 View Post
    So the Fook is more important than the Tan? or Tut Sau is more important than the Punch? or the Concept represented in the Tut sau more important than the Core WCK concepts embodied within the punch? To me, that makes little sence. So pound for pound Huen Sau is the most important idea found in the forms? as its repeated the most?

    I believe you may be doing too much thinking about it for your own good.


    What needs more repetition is a question of what is believed to need more practice. It has nothing to do with the individual importance of a technique.
    When you control the hands and feet, there are no secrets.
    http://www.Moyyat.com

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Vancouver, B.C. Canada
    Posts
    2,140

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    From a Chimese Numerology website:

    The number "3" is used many times in Chinese culture. The only reason that I can think of is because it is mentioned in the I Ching, pronounced E Ching. It stands for Heaven, Earth and Man. When we bow to offer incense, it is always done three times. In bonsai and ikebana, the patterns follow an irregular triangle to represent the trinity of heaven, earth and man.

    By Don Gee
    www.chcp.org



    Might have something to do with it.
    The Numerology study in Yijing does regard the number 3 as an important number. While it is true that it's a representation of Heaven, Earth and Human, there are a more to it then this explanation IMHO.

    Lao Zi in Dao De Jing posits that Dao gives birth to one (1), one gives birth to two (2), two gives birth to three (3), and three gives birth to myriad of things (4).

    0/1 -> 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4/all things

    Here One is the Taiji, 2 is the yin/yang or heaven and earth. 3 is Men (with Heaven and Earth). They are essentially one but also three which is a representation of the modes of time past, present and future. In our physical environment, there are 3 states of form - Solid, fluid, and Vapour/wind. Since water transforms back and forth with this three properties relative to temperature changes (fire). This is also the reason that Lao Zi held water in high regards. In the life process of a human being, we are conceived in the womb (water), and born as "solid" mass and ending with one final exhalation. Conventionally, the transformation of the water is usually represented by a circle (related to the both the number 3 and 6) within fire which is represented by equilateral triangel (with three 60 degree angles). BTW, this is why the goat capturing, horse stance or in a lotus seat position (triangle formed by the top of head and the feet/egs at a regualted distance) is most elemental in Kung Fu. By moving 3 times, we are mindful of the transformation within and without us. We can see why the mystics in India and China all value the number 3.

    Just a thought.

    Warm Regards

    Mantis108
    Contraria Sunt Complementa

    對敵交手歌訣

    凡立勢不可站定。凡交手須是要走。千着萬着﹐走為上着﹐進為高着﹐閃賺騰挪為
    妙着。


    CCK TCPM in Yellowknife

    TJPM Forum

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    local
    Posts
    4,200

    Lightbulb 9, 18, 72, 108.

    in chinese martial arts(we'll call it kung fu here), the numbers 18,72, and 108 are a common occurence in relation to the number of techniques and methods in many particular styles... these numbers reduce themselves to the number 9, which represents change and is the number associated to the tiger... below are a few of the symbolic meanings each number in their respected order.

    the number 9...
    Number of the patience, the meditation.

    Number of the harmony, it represents the inspiration and the perfection of the ideas.

    It is the expression of "the power of the Holy Spirit", according to Etchegoyen.

    Symbolize the plenitude of talents, the reward of the tests.

    Symbol of the creation and the life as a rhythm and development.

    As a product of 3 x 3, it is the expression of the perfection, the symbol of the virile power, in addition to be associated to the couple.

    Nine is the number of the one who accomplishes the divine will. According to the Cabal, it is also the number of the achievement.

    The freemasons have made it the eternal number of human immortality.

    Being the last simple number, it is the number of finalization or finition; it is therefore the most complex, that marks the full lighting up of the numerical series.

    This number was considered as sacred in Egypt and in Greece.

    Number of the man, as a numeral symbol of his gestation (nine months).

    Number symbolizing the nocturnal and terrestrial things, for the Aztecs.

    Number of the hierarchy, represented by nine choruses of the Angels.

    Represent the three divine manifestations in the three plans: world of the spirit, world of the soul, world of the matter, which gives a triple manifestations of Trinity (3 x 3).

    Symbol of the multitude, and according to Parmenide, it concerns the absolute things and it is the symbol of the totality of the human being.

    A favorable number, associate to the eternity.

    The nine Choruses of the Angels:

    Seraphes, angels of love and light;
    Cherubs, angels of wisdom and intelligence;
    Thrones, angels of force and life;
    Dominations, angels of liberty;
    Principalities, angels of eternity and memory;
    Powers, angels of holiness;
    Vertues, angels of humility;
    Archangels, having for attribute the justice;
    Ordinary angels, to which we attribute the innocence.


    The nine days of retreat and prayers in a novena are sources of divine graces.

    In the revelations received by Mary Jane of United States, the Lord says that there are nine degrees of prayers. The four firsts are the vocal prayer, the meditation, the affective prayer and the innate comtemplation. The last five are the types of the mystical prayer: the innate comtemplation, the quiet prayer, the prayer of union, the prayer of union in conformity, and the most mystical is the prayer of transforming union.

    Jacques Paquette refers, in his book "Apocalypse: prophecies of the end of times", to nine kingdoms associating the 4th to the Roman empire 19 centuries ago, the Revelation of John speaks about it in the chapter 2 verse 40. The ninth universal empire, called also thousand years reign, corresponds to the New Jerusalem of the Revelation.

    God spread many extraordinary graces on the Virgin Mary the nine days before the Annunciation, according to visions of Mary Agreda.

    After the death of a Pope, we celebrate masses for the rest of his soul during nine days, with nine absolutions.

    Nine was the name of the sacred mountain of the Sun, for the ancient Egyptians.

    Some peoples believed that the Sky was divided into nine celestial levels. It was the case for the Buddhists and also for the last worshippers of Mithra.

    The nine plains of the Chinese sky. The hall of the imperial throne was separated by nine gates from the rest of the palace and the book of Annals, named Chou-king, exposes the "Sublime Science" in nine rules. Also the Chinese prostrated 9 times in front of their emperor.

    There was nine gates which separated the sacred enclosure (the holy of Holies) of some religious traditions, from the rest of the space, this one considered profane.

    Deucalion, the Greek Noah, sails during 9 days on the vessel which he has built on the command of the gods.

    For Hesiode, the Earth was separated from the Heaven by a distance of nine days and nine nights, and from the hell also by nine days and nights.

    The nine levels of the hell of Dante.

    The nine nodes of the bamboo for the Taoists.

    The nine notches of the birch-axis of the world at the Siberian tribes.

    The nine openings of the man for Islam.

    The nine stages that should traverse the souls of Aztecs to reach the eternal rest. They counted also nine underground worlds.

    The nine was the key number of teaching for the materialistic Hindu philosophers in the Vaiceshika school.

    It is the period of years when the voice of God is heard by a person if this person did not understand yet one of his lessons of life.

    The 9 girls of Belenos of the druidism: Ogia - virginity, Glania - purity, Karantia - charity, Uxellia - nobleness, Viriona - truth, Aventia - honesty, Dagia - goodness, Lania - plenitude, and Lovania - joy.

    The nine is often found in the superstitions, such as for example, nine salt grains means the bad fate. And if someone wants to get marry in the year will jump nine times over a fire of the saint John or will jump over nine different fires. The tradition wants that the drowned returns to the surface of the water after nine days.

    The magic square using the first nine numbers is associated to the planet Saturn and has for sum 15. Sometimes, it is also called the "square of Solomon".

    Every nine years Athens sent, in the island of Crete, seven young men and seven young girls to be sacrificed there to the Minotaure.

    There is nine "Dharmas", books constituting the Nepal Bible.

    Orphism defines nine symbolic aspects of the universe divided into 3 triads: the night, the sky and the time; the ether, the light and the stars; the sun, the moon and the nature.

    The 9 was the sacred monogram of the Moon goddess, "Bolon Tiku" of the Mayas.

    The "Jin-Hoang" of the "Kieou-teou" divide the earth in nine parts, and nine brothers of the same name share the empire of the world.

    In the Brahminism, Vichnou incarnates in nine avatars to sacrifice himself for the salvation of men.

    In the biodynamic agriculture, the complete cycle for the preparation of the compost lasts nine months.

    The language includes, grammatically, nine parts: the verb, the noun, the adjective, the participle, the conjunction, the article, the pronoun, the preposition and the adverb - interjection apart.

    The nine planets discovered in our solar system, are in the order starting from Sun: Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto. Recently a tenth planet was discovery beyond Pluto.

    R. Allendy speaks about the curious arithmetical properties of the nine which gives it a very particular character because of the use of our decimal notation system. In another numerical notation system they would cease to exist: the difference between an unspecified number and the number formed by the inversion of its digits is always a multiple of 9 - example: between 26 and 62, the difference is 36, multiple of 9; the multiples of 9 are always composed of digits where the sum (once reduced) is equal to 9; the product 123456789 x 9 gives 9 times the digit 1 in the answer (1111111101). Concerning this last property, Elisabeth Haich mentiones the next calculations:

    0 x 9 + 1 = 1
    1 x 9 + 2 = 11
    12 x 9 + 3 = 111
    123 x 9 + 4 = 1111
    1234 x 9 + 5 = 11111
    12345 x 9 + 6 = 111111
    123456 x 9 + 7 = 1111111
    1234567 x 9 + 8 = 11111111
    12345678 x 9 + 9 = 111111111
    123456789 x 9 + 10 = 1111111111

    The Trojan War lasted nine years.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •