Wing Chun for Combat

[Yoshiyahu]

Question. With all the threats that may befall you in dark alley or getting jumped by thugs while walking to your car in parking garage or parking lot. I was woundering what you guys think of fingers conditioning to make your Bil Gee strikes more pliable and able to penetrate an send Chi to a given pressure point on the center line?

http://members.tripod.com/RyuBuKan/i...ion_Vessel.JPG

Training the Fingers:
1.Holding Jars filled with sand or water?

http://shaolin.org/images/shaolin/claw06c.jpg

http://books.google.com/books?id=KFQ...ning#PPA130,M1

2.Push ups on your fingers?

http://shaolin.org/images/shaolin/claw05c.jpg

http://books.google.com/books?id=KFQ...ning#PPA125,M1

3.Finger striking a hanging bag filled with beans or sand?


4.Thrusting fingers into a Bowl filled with Rice.(later Beans, Sand,Gravel and steel shots).

http://shaolin.org/images/shaolin/claw02c.jpg

http://books.google.com/books?id=KFQ...w+conditioning



Many say that doing finger exercises cause deformities or side effects such as arthritis later on????


Well doesn't Dit Da Jows and Iron Palm liniments help heal the hands so their is no long term or extended damage?

It is very important to apply suitable medication for such training. Wash the hands in medicated concoction before and after training. This will clear blockage and generate blood flow, overcome swelling and eliminate pain.

Some say striking surfaces with your fingers cause damage to your eyes?

Once a week drink a medical concoction called “Brightening Eyes Concoction”. Piercing beans may affect the eyes. Aspiring students must not be ignorant of the importance of medical supplement. Otherwise, not only they may fail in acquiring the art, but hurt their hands and eyes. In kungfu terminology, this is “zou huo ru mo” (“Chow for yup mo”), which is “fire escapes eveil enters” or in simple modern language, “deviation”.

Also what if some one practices 18 Figure Chi Kung Daily twice a day. Wouldn't this also aid in the promotion of healthy eyes and hands and body?

If someone develop the ability to pierce their hands through a bag of sand would this be a good tool to use against multiple attackers?



http://books.google.com/books?id=DBs...ining#PPA49,M1

http://books.google.com/books?id=DBs...ining#PPA50,M1

http://books.google.com/books?id=_tY...ining#PPA20,M1

One can use a century bob to place red or yellow stickers along the points of 14 main meridans. Then one can practice striking them over and over again each day until it becomes natural.

The Meridan that has points running down the center line is called the conception Meridan.

http://www.yinyanghouse.com/images/cv_meridian.gif

http://www.thebodyworker.com/concept...elmeridian.gif


Along the center of the back there is the Governing Meridan

http://archaeomyth.com/China%27s%20A...ing2-clear.gif

http://www.yinyanghouse.com/images/gv_meridian.gif




Points to attack:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m...g?t=1240970055


Pressure Point charts:

http://www.mothernature.com/images/l...oices/pg14.GIF

http://www.handsoflight2012.com/imag...ridians_1_.gif

[Katsu Jin Ken]

i sometime do number 3, i dont really worry about it if im gonna finger strike it'll be to an eye and your fingers dont have to be conditioned to do damage to that organ.

on a second note, if i manifest my chi consiously i can direct it towards an oncoming advisery and blind him with a thunderous boom and tremendous flash of light...............my chi has transformed into a cylinderical form, imbedded a pull pin all i do is pull and throw. Some might say its a flash banger but to me its my chi

[Vajramusti]

Good grief!!

[Lee Chiang Po]

When I was a young man, I would use a large box of loose sand for training my hands. I would spear my fingers into the sand box in an effort to drive them as deeply into the sand as possible. At first the fingers will try to turn in every direction. Eventually, the hand strengthens and learns to align itself so that it has stability and penetration. Your hands will become extremely tough and take some really blows. It will not injure your hands or your eyes. Targets for Bil Jee are the eyes, the throat, the face and sides of the head and neck, the arm pits, the groin, and the liver and the spleen. By groin I am not refering to the testicles, but the crease from the hip bone to the pelvic bridge. This area is just loaded with nerves and large blood vains, and a strong bil jee to the groin can prove fatal. The throat is a good target, and it will drop an opponent instantly. But if you are not careful you can collapse the wind pipe and kill the person.
You really do not have to abuse your hands in order to train them to become serious weapons. Just consistancy in your training of them. Use loose sand.
The way you use the hand is to use the 2 middle fingers as the main spear point with the little finger and the first finger as a brace for the middle 2. And of course you know how to roll the hand at the wrist on impact.

[Yoshiyahu]

i sometime do number 3, i dont really worry about it if im gonna finger strike it'll be to an eye and your fingers dont have to be conditioned to do damage to that organ.

on a second note, if i manifest my chi consiously i can direct it towards an oncoming advisery and blind him with a thunderous boom and tremendous flash of light...............my chi has transformed into a cylinderical form, imbedded a pull pin all i do is pull and throw. Some might say its a flash banger but to me its my chi

I am not trying to condscending or arrogant but by your statement I can see your Sifu or older Brothers have never shared this information with you. Your statement shows your lack knowledge in this area. Actually I started the conversation as way to enlighten some people on this forum. I was training atleast three to four years before my Sifu discuss this type of training with me. When I first was introduced to it. It was totally new and strange. I want to share topics that came up with me as young man. So others will have atleast heard or been exposed to various training and kungs of Wing Chun that may or may not been done in their lineage. I really desire that my threads become a spring board for dialogue and sharing of useful information that can improve and inform Newcomers to Wing Chun. I love the Yuen Kay San art an wish to share more with others. But I also wish to learn from other lineages an how they condition and strenghten themselves for fighting.

Please if you can share an valid opinion on Wing Chun or Snake Fist conditioning please share something concerning your Karate Iron fist or Hand conditioning.

Whats the Karate way of developing the spear hand?

When I was a young man, I would use a large box of loose sand for training my hands. I would spear my fingers into the sand box in an effort to drive them as deeply into the sand as possible. At first the fingers will try to turn in every direction. Eventually, the hand strengthens and learns to align itself so that it has stability and penetration. Your hands will become extremely tough and take some really blows. It will not injure your hands or your eyes. Targets for Bil Jee are the eyes, the throat, the face and sides of the head and neck, the arm pits, the groin, and the liver and the spleen. By groin I am not refering to the testicles, but the crease from the hip bone to the pelvic bridge. This area is just loaded with nerves and large blood vains, and a strong bil jee to the groin can prove fatal. The throat is a good target, and it will drop an opponent instantly. But if you are not careful you can collapse the wind pipe and kill the person.
You really do not have to abuse your hands in order to train them to become serious weapons. Just consistancy in your training of them. Use loose sand.
The way you use the hand is to use the 2 middle fingers as the main spear point with the little finger and the first finger as a brace for the middle 2. And of course you know how to roll the hand at the wrist on impact.

Excellent Post. Do you have any pictures to illustrate some of what you are sharing concerning the spear hand formation. I am glad atleast one person on this forum has done some serious training!

[t_niehoff]

From my perspective, finger strikes are a really, really poor idea (and that's not what the biu jee is for IMO). And I don't care what stories people have heard or what they've been told; all anyone needs to do to appreciate this is to spar full-contact (going all out, 100%) and try throwing some finger strikes, providing, of course, that they don't mind breaking some of their fingers (because that's all that is going to happen). Not only is it extremely risky to use that "weapon" itself, the idea that you can hit pinpoint targets -- whether the eyes or, some silly "pressure point" -- is another really, really poor idea. Again, I don't care what stories people have heard or what they've been told; all they need to do to appreciate this is to spar full-contact (going all out, 100%) and try to pinpoint strike. They'll find that sort of fine motor skill simply doesn't work under the pressure of high intensity. Things like finger strikes to fine targets make great fantasy, but are so extremely low percentage and high risk in reality that trying them is essentially asking to fail.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

From my perspective, finger strikes are a really, really poor idea (and that's not what the biu jee is for IMO).

Agreed.

the idea that you can hit pinpoint targets -- whether the eyes or, some silly "pressure point" -- is another really, really poor idea. Again, I don't care what stories people have heard or what they've been told; all they need to do to appreciate this is to spar full-contact (going all out, 100%) and try to pinpoint strike. They'll find that sort of fine motor skill simply doesn't work under the pressure of high intensity.

...finger strikes to fine targets make great fantasy, but are so extremely low percentage and high risk in reality that trying them is essentially asking to fail.

In my opinion, the range of target specificity in all out combat varies from person to person. The average fighter can specify large targets such as the head or gut; a good fighter can aim a bit better, say to specific structures on the head (chin, Angle of jaw, nose.) I'm open to the possibility of someone being able to stay cool enough under combat pressure to get even more specific than that.

There is, however, a situational reality that trumps target specificity, and that is target availability (the areas where are they open/unguarded.) The average fighter aims for the openings. A good fighter can better pick a specific part of the opening to hit.

As far as pressure point attacks, most lists are really just the acupoints found around common targets. I believe that to even think about that level of target specificity without having proficiency in the other to levels is both useless and foolhardy. We're much better off learning to consistently hit open targets under pressure first, and working from there.

[t_niehoff]

In my opinion, the range of target specificity in all out combat varies from person to person. The average fighter can specify large targets such as the head or gut; a good fighter can aim a bit better, say to specific structures on the head (chin, Angle of jaw, nose.) I'm open to the possibility of someone being able to stay cool enough under combat pressure to get even more specific than that.

From my perspective, you are absolutely correct about it varying from person to person (based on skill level, experience, etc.). But it doesn't have anything to do with "staying cool"; when your body is moving/working at 100%, the fine motor skill goes out the window (actually, long before you get to 100%). For example, just significantly raising your heart rate (which comes with exertion) will significantly decrease your fine motor ability. And if you are fighting, your heart rate is going up!

I also agree that good fighters (those that have greater levels of skill) can generally strike more accurately, e.g., chin vs, head. However, when you look at their percentages of hitting specific targets (# times hitting the target/# total shots at target), you'll see that they frequently miss the target (yes, the strike to the chin knocked his opponent out, but how many times did he throw trying to hit the chin?).

There is, however, a situational reality that trumps target specificity, and that is target availability (the areas where are they open/unguarded.) The average fighter aims for the openings. A good fighter can better pick a specific part of the opening to hit.

Certainly you can't hit what isn't open.

A corrollary of this is that the better skilled your opponent, the less openings he gives you.

As far as pressure point attacks, most lists are really just the acupoints found around common targets. I believe that to even think about that level of target specificity without having proficiency in the other to levels is both useless and foolhardy. We're much better off learning to consistently hit open targets under pressure first, and working from there.

And those accupoints won't do much even if you do hit them.

My view is that if people actually got out and fought -- put in some significant time sparring at 100%, full-out intensity, particularly with some competent fighters -- they'd see this stuff for themselves.

[Yoshiyahu]

From my perspective, finger strikes are a really, really poor idea (and that's not what the biu jee is for IMO). And I don't care what stories people have heard or what they've been told; all anyone needs to do to appreciate this is to spar full-contact (going all out, 100%) and try throwing some finger strikes, providing, of course, that they don't mind breaking some of their fingers (because that's all that is going to happen). Not only is it extremely risky to use that "weapon" itself, the idea that you can hit pinpoint targets -- whether the eyes or, some silly "pressure point" -- is another really, really poor idea. Again, I don't care what stories people have heard or what they've been told; all they need to do to appreciate this is to spar full-contact (going all out, 100%) and try to pinpoint strike. They'll find that sort of fine motor skill simply doesn't work under the pressure of high intensity. Things like finger strikes to fine targets make great fantasy, but are so extremely low percentage and high risk in reality that trying them is essentially asking to fail.

You are correct people need to spar and also practice using finger techniques while sparring under pressure.

In my opinion just memorizing a pressure point chart is not enough...You must train your fingers to strike hard objects so they don't break when you strike a person. Like for instance a Heavy bag,Wall Bag,Bucket filled with steel shots and a Century Bob.

A century bob is a useful tool. I suggest getting circular stickers an placing them along the Conceptional Meridans points and Maybe the Governing Meridans points and practice striking them. First one may do it slowly to build up finger strength along with push ups on ones fingers and plenty of dit da jow. Then after time begin to strike the century bob harder and faster to you get to the point where you engage in a anarobic work out. Work on striking with accuracy. Also a small ball of foil on string or rubber bands can help with hand and eye cooridation and accuracy when striking with fingers.

Personally I think the phoneix Eye fist is a better weapon against pressure points than Bil Gee. But I am simply throwing the information out there.

But in short one should be able to strike the century bob with force with his fingers before trying it in sparring. But if you can develop your fingers to the point where you can strike a 100lb heavy bag with out jamming or breaking your fingers. Than and only then will striking those acupressure points do damage or atleast slow down an attacker. When your fingers are strong enough to pierce through a wooden board about half and inch thick then your able to do real harm.



"Lian quan bu lian gong, dao lao yi chang kong”

in Cantonese pronunciation “Lean khuen pat lean kung, tou lou yit cheong hoong”.

“If you only train form without training force, you will be futile even if you train you whole life.”

”Quan wei gong zi beng, gong wei quan zi bu”

(“Khuen wai kung zi phoon, kung wai khuen zi phoor”)

“Techniques are the base of force, force is the support of techniques.”

[Xiao3 Meng4]

When your fingers are strong enough to pierce through a wooden board about half and inch thick then your able to do real harm.

Hey!


Puff Puff Pass, dude... don't hog it all to yourself now.


One point I DO agree with you on is grip strength. The old Jar filled w/ heavy sh*t is always good, but there are modern methods that work as well.

Personally, if I'm going to be ramping up an attribute, I try to make it an attribute that is widely applicable in my life. For instance, grip strength is good in MA, but I actually practice and develop it more from giving Tui Na massage.

If you can develop an attribute through practical, multi-disciplinary applications, then it's an attribute worth developing.

Finger striking is very very very limited in application and attribute development. Not my cup of tea at all.

Also, with WCK having a core philosophy of optimization, it makes sense to me to be able to develop, practice and apply attributes across different fields.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

Yosh-

please dont make assumptions about me thats kinda childish

your in STL im in springfield, we should meet up to discusses some WC sometime.

[Yoshiyahu]

[QUOTE=Xiao3 Meng4;931956]Finger striking is very very very limited in application and attribute development. Not my cup of tea at all.QUOTE]

Wing Chun is a striking Art...Using the fingers is way to give you more extension. Fingers are longer than fist...


http://www.shaolinjeeshinwingchun.co...s_dim_mak.html


Check this out dude???

Centre line theory, one of our major principles, is not only used to gain the straight line attack and the shortest distance of travel, but also employed to protect our major striking targets along the centre line. Also, attacking along the centre line will automatically direct your strikes to your opponent's pressure points.

If your fingers are strengthen enough why not use them for multitasked along with piercing holes in things.

Biu Jee

- The Biu Jee hand contains emergency techniques.

- Iron fingers can strike a vital point at once.

- The stepping in elbow strike has sufficient threatening power.

- The phoenix eye punch has no compassion.

- Fak Sau, Ginger Fist, and Guide Bridge; their movements are closely coordinated and hard to defend and nullify.

- Springy power and the extended arm are applied to close range.

- The situation is different when preventing from defeat in an emergency.

- The Biu Jee is not taught to outsiders.

- How many Sifu pass on the proper heritage?

http://www.wcarchive.com/articles/ma...it.htm#Biu_Jee

Yosh-

please dont make assumptions about me thats kinda childish

your in STL im in springfield, we should meet up to discusses some WC sometime.

I'm Sorry Great Grand Master Chi Orb...Please next time your in St.louis look me up or call me...so we can chi sau. Let feel your Chi powers!

Katsu Jin Ken said:

on a second note, if i manifest my chi consiously i can direct it towards an oncoming advisery and blind him with a thunderous boom and tremendous flash of light...............my chi has transformed into a cylinderical form, imbedded a pull pin all i do is pull and throw. Some might say its a flash banger but to me its my chi

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/99vs66/BilGee.html

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sho....php?p=1110354

[Katsu Jin Ken]

Let feel your Chi powers!

are you hittin on me? i dont switch hit bro sorry

[t_niehoff]

Anyone who believes the fingers can be used effectively to strike viatal points (in stand up) is living in fantasyland. As I said, all they need to do is spar at 100% and they'll see.

[Yoshiyahu]

are you hittin on me? i dont switch hit bro sorry

Oh I am sorry I didnt realize you were lesbian young lady...ha ha...

I thought you were the reincarnation of Yim Wing Chun...So sorry...