Iron Shin and Iron Forearm Training

[chusauli]

yes, just your hand.
And the denser bone structure is from the repeated impact that cause mirco-fractures, I forget the scientific term for it.
Think the difference between the bones in your feet and shins if you were to jog every day bare footed as opposed to with running shoes.

Your goal is not microfractures, but stress with a line of force through the bones. You are looking for osteoblastosis.

Iron palm training does do alignment training, too. Not just the hands, but with the horse.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Your goal is not microfractures, but stress with a line of force through the bones. You are looking for osteoblastosis.

Iron palm training does do alignment training, too. Not just the hands, but with the horse.

Thanks Robert, I misremember the term.

[Dale Dugas]

Thanks Chu Shifu.

I made mention of the ground connection as well.

[clam61]

hi mr dugas

lots of questions here. hope you can help me understand. i saw your website. very promising but some questions before i buy.

It is actually more about getting energy to move through specific ranges of movement and developing those in the beginning through large ranges and then focusing them over time with smaller movements with no lose of power.

and i assume this is done through dropping a relaxed hand onto the bag? how does this apply to a real world situation where my palm strike will be moving outwards towards an opponent and not coming down from my head?

Standing and performing various qi gongs that are included in most real iron palm programs help to develop the use of creating a connection with the ground.

could you further explain this ground connection. do you mean a physical connection?

[Dale Dugas]

first you have to learn to relax and connect the entire structure to the ground. this takes time depending on the person training it.

Once you have done this, you can then take your training to a more realistic method and hang a bag up and start using the same forces learned through a horizontal range of movement.

Start with the horizontal and advance to the vertial/diagonal etc...

The ground connection is a physical connection in the beginning and then turns into both an internal and external connection with time.

You will learn how to exert force through your structure in the correct manner. Learn this using the least amount of interference and move one from there to other postures as well as adding external interference from people.

Hope this helps

[clam61]

The ground connection is a physical connection in the beginning and then turns into both an internal and external connection with time.

thanks for the explanations. hope you have the time to dive deeper into this. i think it would be beneficial for others as well as i know there are skeptics out there.

im willing to listen and learn

could you expand on the external/internal connection to the ground and why this increases power?

im physically standing on the ground as it is. what more of the external aspect can be changed?

what is the internal connection?

why does any connection to the ground increase power?!

[Yoshiyahu]

Hmmm sounds like some pretty good drills.

Playing catch with a cloth or canvas bag full of lead shot will do wonders for forearm, wrist and hand strengthening.

Stand a good distance away from a partner and toss it back and forth. Try to throw it using a punch-like motion using your center of gravity to project outwards, not using centrifigual force or a swinging wind-up like pitching a baseball.

Try to catch it in the same manner. Striking at it with a punch-like motion top stop the momentum dead, not letting your hand and arm sink and swing after you catch it.

Or you could take a page from Uki's book and juggle 9 pound steel balls.
I'm sure that will you get you nice and strong in no time.

Calluses can be advoided by proper liniment and massage the hands.

RE: Push-ups on Knuckles, the only the ing that they do is "help" with the alignment on your knuckles and wrist, different surfaces will just bake the skin rougher and create calluses.

The wall bag routine is fine and can be modified to be used on a wooden post/dummy rather than a wall ( perferable in some ways, more give).

Punching trees and pots and jars is, well, redundant.

In my opinion when you drop down force on heavy iron palm bag with steel shots you are doing more than just conditioning the palm. When ever you strike something its partly chi that goes to part of the body to heal the energy. Dit Da Jow helps promote chi circulation to that part of the body. Along with Chi Kung Before and after. So many things are going when your dropping down force. For instance just dropping down force in air also makes your strikes heavier.

The Iron Palm via dropping down force makes your Gum Sau,low Gan sau and Jum Sau more devasting. When you drop down force you are gaining muscle memory for one. Your training your hand to become heavier in other words harder or more force at the end when it drops. The motion is done with out force so you are training Yin energy as well. Your holding your stance while dropping down force so you are learning how to cycle force and energy through your structure. An yes you making your stars harder.

Two analogies.

Imagine you punching a pillow and wooden beam. Which one can you hit harder consecutively with out problems. The Pillow why? Because the wooden beam hit too hard will hurt your hand. But if your hand is condition to where wooden beam doesn't hurt than you can hit as hard as you like consecutively. So if you train your palms to lets say break bricks. Then if you palm strike someone on the skull it won't injury your hand. Its like sticking your hand in warm water or hot water. You can not put your hand that far into hot water with out removing it due to the pain. But if your hand was conditioned enough one could place his entire hand in the hot water.


So the more condition your hand is the harder you can hit a target naturally.

The other explanation is concerning the Chi...I mention it but I won't go into detail on that. I will say this about the external aspect. Which hurts more some one hitting you hard as hell in the face with a pillow or baseball bat. If you say bat. Why not make your palms hard like iron instead of soft like flesh when you strike.

An as for a relax palm...this is natural you can not really tense your palm up when striking can you. Its not a clinch fist!!!!

regarding iron palm etc...iron palm is created by dropping your relaxed hand onto a bag full of beans, stones, steel shot

i can see how this conditions the hand, but how does htis create a powerful strike?

[bennyvt]

I was watching a movie and this old guy got upset and hit the stone table and smashed it. I wanted to do that. I asked my teacher who said he had learnt it from another style. The main thing I was told that it had to be on the ground not on the wall bag, as this wrecked your shoulders (which I replied "oh is that why my shoulders are ****ed" as I had already been doing that, my teacher smached me in the back of the head). He said to put it on a bench or ground and hit it. He said the main thing was like the bag, to stop the normal human thing of "**** it will hurt so I wont hit it hard" same as the bag. Though training we learn to hit as hard as we can no matter what we are hitting. Barry once said when asked if punching hurts your hands, "if you are worried about your hands you shouldn't be fighting. Run away cause at some point you are going to break your hands as fighting anything can happen."
Like the bag, repedative impact causes the bones to fracture and the body repairs it and makes the matrix inside the bone thicker so it is less likely to happen again. This also happens due to increased muscle mass as the body recognises that the bones need to be stronger and the muscle is stronger so more likely for the bone to snap.
I also saw a guy put his finger though a tree. Bill taught me to strike a bucket with my fingers (this was also becaus ehe felt that before I learnt the dummy I needed to keep my fingers togeather and make them stronger as I used to keep them pretty loose and they would buckle under pressure. The bucket should be filled with (in order of soft to hard) rice, pebbles, sand, rocks. I got to the point that I put my finger throught the side of the bucket cause my fingers were curved and I left it at that.

[Dale Dugas]

umm,

What are you talking about?

[Vajramusti]

DON'T do the bucket with rocks thingee.

joy chaudhuri

[Yoshiyahu]

Yea my sifu told me the same thing with the bucket of rice...the last hard thing to hit would be steelshots...


But yea there are other ways to increase the strength of your fingers.

1.Do riding the tiger 100 times daily
2.Push Ups on your fingers 100 times daily
3.Strike small hanging bag filled with beans with your fingers
(Progess to rice and later steel shots)

Wit the striking the first couple of months should not be all out hard force. Yes if you use medium force you are still causing your muscles and bones to repair but the pain is minor compare to out right breaking the fingers so you can not use them...Also plenty of Dit Da Jow before and after along with Chi Kung before and after!

I was watching a movie and this old guy got upset and hit the stone table and smashed it. I wanted to do that. I asked my teacher who said he had learnt it from another style. The main thing I was told that it had to be on the ground not on the wall bag, as this wrecked your shoulders (which I replied "oh is that why my shoulders are ****ed" as I had already been doing that, my teacher smached me in the back of the head). He said to put it on a bench or ground and hit it. He said the main thing was like the bag, to stop the normal human thing of "**** it will hurt so I wont hit it hard" same as the bag. Though training we learn to hit as hard as we can no matter what we are hitting. Barry once said when asked if punching hurts your hands, "if you are worried about your hands you shouldn't be fighting. Run away cause at some point you are going to break your hands as fighting anything can happen."
Like the bag, repedative impact causes the bones to fracture and the body repairs it and makes the matrix inside the bone thicker so it is less likely to happen again. This also happens due to increased muscle mass as the body recognises that the bones need to be stronger and the muscle is stronger so more likely for the bone to snap.

I also saw a guy put his finger though a tree. Bill taught me to strike a bucket with my fingers (this was also becaus ehe felt that before I learnt the dummy I needed to keep my fingers togeather and make them stronger as I used to keep them pretty loose and they would buckle under pressure. The bucket should be filled with (in order of soft to hard) rice, pebbles, sand, rocks. I got to the point that I put my finger throught the side of the bucket cause my fingers were curved and I left it at that.

DON'T do the bucket with rocks thingee.

joy chaudhuri

[bennyvt]

cant you read english or is it that I didnt add the chi crap.
As everyone has stated the impact causes the bones to get tiny tears and the oesteoblasts replace it with more fibres to make it stronger. The hitting teaches you to hit without worrying about your hand being hurt. No mystical crap needed.

[Dale Dugas]

Benny,

It was more the tales of sticking you hands through buckets that made me ask what you were talking about.

That sounds like very much a tall tale.

Add this to your first stating the bones fracture, and then you agree that the bones are being caused to grow via the forces acting upon them as tears.


Just curious as to how long you have been training your iron skills?

If you can stick your hands through the side of a bucket why train at all, you should be able to penetrate skin and organs with that level of skill.

video of that at all?

[Hendrik]

Benny,

It was more the tales of sticking you hands through buckets that made me ask what you were talking about.

That sounds like very much a tall tale.

Add this to your first stating the bones fracture, and then you agree that the bones are being caused to grow via the forces acting upon them as tears.


Just curious as to how long you have been training your iron skills?

If you can stick your hands through the side of a bucket why train at all, you should be able to penetrate skin and organs with that level of skill.

video of that at all?

Dale,


I love the song "let it be" after reading so much fantasy.

[bennyvt]

I did it by mistake. My hand was curved and it went through the side.I cut my hand open trying to get my hand back out. Yes I dont do it anymore. When I told my teacher and showed him my hand he smacked me in the back of the head. an old bucket is different to skin.