How to defeat a Wrestler

[Yoshiyahu]

Yea, Anyone good. But these guys were just bullies. Sure some of them may have been high school wrestlers. But my thought was if I go down I will stay connected until he lands down. He can not hold on to me while he flops down. I would be hurt bad but have enough time to escape from him when he tried to get up. But I knew if I didn't wrap around him. He would have just toss me in the air.

any one good would have jumped and landed on you if you just wrap around them when they picked you up. Watch hughes he does it all the time. Sorry about the bad english im an aussie and im using my phone so preemptive text stuffs it up if i dont look carefully

As for gospel...Who am I no body. Not any body special. My belief is a good ground fighter who is skilled can take any striker to ground and submit him....A good Wing Chun fighter who is skilled can advoid the ground thus defeating a grappler.

What I am saying is cross training is not the end all. Its nothing wrong with Cross training wrestling. If you like wrestling an plan on using in as sport then go at it. But mostly in fights I have seen in street the closet you get to wrestling is clinch fighting like WC or Muay Thai.


But you guys live in different cities than me. So alot of the guys you interact with are wrestlers. Everyone where I live are just trying to head hunt...Meaning they want to knock your head off. I see more women rolling on the ground than I do men. But usually they are not trying to submit but just get in a dominant posistion to hit the other girl in the face. An when someone goes to ground its not due to a shoot either. Its because your pulled down by your hair. Knocked down by a punch connecting at the right place. Or just simply trip over a rock or curb. As for my stories. Its nothing. Its my mere past experience as a youngin. If you don't believe I am 32 thats fine. I wish I wasn't 32. I wish I was still a school boy under my parents roof. Still eating for free. Playing Nintendo with mario brothers,mortal combat and double dragon. I wish I didn't have to keep up with rent, electricity, gas car insurance, credit card payments and the hassle of bosses at a job. I wish my only duty was to go to school five days a week an meet pretty girls. Those days are done for me. But If any of you have a magic wand and reinstitute those days for me an presto me back to being 16 again. By all means please do. But give me the knowledge I have now. Everything I know now let me keep. So I can make some changes in my life from back then. But phyiscally change back a whipping sixteen year old with a head full of hair. Man the receeding hair line and ball spot aint all its crack up to me!

As for nothing gurantees winning a fight. Well actually practice helps give you favor. Sparring helps give you experience but a real fight is totally different than sparring, practice, chi sau, sprawling, and even MMA competitions. The bloke your fighting isn't trying to work on his technique,tap you out by way of submission or be able to defend agaist your attacks. Your enemy is trying hurt you badly. In some cases he may even be trying to kill you depending on his mental state. So going to ground could mean your life ending if he can get you there. Regardless if you have a good ground game. Getting jumped by twelve guys an taking one to ground is not a good idea in my opinion. I know no one here think that is either. If you think your ground skills can protect you in an altercation against 12 angry thugs than have it. I would advise against though. But a actual fight is scary. Its not something that any one can say I know I am going to win. You dont know but if you come out unscaved and alive than you are thankful for your training in Muay Thai,Karate,Tae Kwon Do or MMA.

I am not on here saying my WC is the best or I can beat everyone on the forum. I may even be worst fighter on here. It doesn't really matter to me. My statement still stands. I don't personally like BJJ. Thats my opinion. I never said its a bad art. If you love Wrestling have at it. The only reason I practice WC is I love doing it. Its a apart of me. The whole you need a ground thing to be a well rounded fighter is find for you but not everyone. I mean if I plan to go to compete in mma tournies than yes maybe I would learn a couple of techniques from bjj.

As for spralwing with friends. I do that because some of friends were wrestlers. An yes they were better wrestlers than Me. But thats mostly because they like wrestling. I am the type that likes to do and see striking. I miss the days of watching strikers in the cage. I miss those days of watching a karate guy fight a boxer. Muay Thai vs Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Do vs Tang So Do. Thats what I like to see. But in the end it all comes too who is the most skilled. I don't personally believe that every striker needs to get a ground game in order to defeat a wrestler. It may help but not all the time. I mean wrestling is what you like. Cool but WC doesn't have to conform. Its standing art. If you add a whole bunch of non chinese elements to WC is still WC?


Am I saying that WC can beat every art NO!

Am I saying that BJJ can be every art with out a ground game? No you guys are saying that if someone practices BJJ and fights someone who has no ground experience the BJJ fighter is always going to win!!! I totally disagree.

You feel that if you study BJJ and Muay Thai and some boxing that you can beat anybody who only studies one art by simply getting them to ground. Once you got them to ground its all over for them. So in other words you are saying your martial mix is the be all to end all. An unless someone adopts your ideology and follows suit like you they can not beat you. The old scenario if you can't beat them join them. I disagree with this. Again its nothing wrong with crosstraining arts you care for or interested in. Its nothing wrong with wrestling in fact it can be alot of fun if you are good at it.

But I totally do not think in other to beat one of you MMA guys someone has to become one. Thats like saying in order to beat a boxer you need to take up boxing. In other to beat a Karate guy you need to take up Karate. In order to beat a Crane fighter take up Crane. In other to defeat a BJJ guy you need to learn BJJ or something close. Do you see what I am saying and why I disagree.

You may not see it because you are bias to your own ideology. But the whole thing that bothers me is that you guys think someone has to become like you in order to beat you instead of just being who they already are?

So, in the unlikely event that anyone takes your claims as gospel, you basically claim to have done exactly what you are saying we shouldn't have to do, viz practice on the ground, various scenarios, sprawling, etc. And your friends are a bunch of crosstrainers anyway - if they are not imaginary friends.

WTF are you on about?

Your stories are so full of inconsistencies, obvious howlers that anyone who had done what you claim to have done would never think, let alone type, and standard schoolboy exaggeration, that no one could possibly believe them, or that you are 32 years old.

Nothing can guarantee you a win in a fight against anybody. Too many variables. Avoidance is the best option if at all possible, especially for the clueless (go to the mirror, boy).

Response to Kansuke:

I am sorry I offended you. I am just simply saying I don't think Cross training is the end all to defeating people who do not cross train. Its like this you got five fighters
1.One Studies only Boxing
2.Another studies only Muay Thai
3.The third one studies only Hung Gar
4.Studies only Karate
5.The Fifth studies both Wing Chun and BJJ

From what I been reading since the fifth guy has a ground game he will be defeat the boxer,MT guy,Hung Ga guy and Karate guy by just simply taking them down and submitting them or breaking their arm?

The reason I disagree because if that was the case. Then single Martial Schools would close down or all become MMA schools. If that was the case there is no need to take a single Marital Art. Just learn a mix. I seen good wrestlers get there arse kick in school by mediorce fighters with no striking experience outside school fights! Does that mean wrestling is bad. No thats not what I am saying.

I am simply saying studing a striking art and ground fighting art is not going to gurantee you win every fight against a Muay Thai guy. Even if you can get him to ground. Further more every striker you won't be able take down. Thats like saying all you need to do is study a little boxing and grappling. An all you need to do is knock out every grappler before he can take you down. Now Mike Tyson in his hayday could knock people out in thrity seconds. But not all the time. It depends on the endurance an skill of the other fighter. So again skill comes into play.

Not everyone who practices striking can defeat another striker!

Not everyone who practices striker can defeat all grapplers!

Not everyone who practices grappling can defeat another grappler!

Not everyone who practices grappling can defeat all strikers!

To all of you who disagree with my post!!!!!!!!!

Question If you study both a striking art and grappling art do you believe you can defeat every Martial Artist who only studies striking with not ground game?

Kansuke said: Kid, you are a delusional little moron trying all too transparently to convince yourself (by arguing with us) that your preconcieved notions and preterminded conclusions can somehow alter reality. If you are lucky you will never run into the cold dose of 'life outside the kwoon' that you seem to be begging for.

[Kansuke]

Kid, you are a delusional little moron trying all too transparently to convince yourself (by arguing with us) that your preconcieved notions and preterminded conclusions can somehow alter reality. If you are lucky you will never run into the cold dose of 'life outside the kwoon' that you seem to be begging for.

[taai gihk yahn]

yoshiyahu: what's your point? you are all over the place in terms of your "ifs" and qualifications;

look, it's simple: the more skill sets you have, the more ranges you can fight in effectively, the better your chances are of doing well in both competition like MMA and in a "real" street fight; of course, MMA is not like the "real" street, but if you look around it is probably the closest thing to it; of course, you can train TCMA in an "MMA" style, meaning that when you spar you work in whatever range you come into, from striking to grappling; I mean, what's the point to arguing all this? if you want to be a good fighter, you learn as much good stuff as is available to you: you find gyms / schools where people train hard, spar as realistically as possible, work against resistance in a "live" environment; and if you like WC, that's great, train it for all its worth; and it's fine not to do BJJ (or another grappling approach) if you don't like it, but in this day and age not having some ground skills in any context puts you behind the curve: if you are a only striker and someone else is only a grappler, it could go either way, but personally, I'd rather have some idea of what the grappler might want to do in order to be able to counter it with striking, and the best way to know what he's gonna do is to train it yourself, so it's in your own body (meaning that training against what a grappler might do is ok, but it's not as effective, IMPE, as getting into his perspective yourself)

also, you are getting stuck on "style versus style"; of course, to a certain degree it's the style (I mean, I would go for MT or BJJ before Kuk Sool Won in terms of practical effectiveness, that's for sure, LOL), but then you have to take account things like physical skill, strength, size, conditioning, emotional state, environment, sequence of events, etc. - all these variables make any "real" encounter highly unpredictable - one trains a variety of skill sets in order to try to control as many of these variables as possible; heck, walking down the street on the "correct" side projecting a confident attitude takes care of a lot of that as well (not being on that street at 3 AM also does); and sometimes you just can't avoid it, sh1t happens even to the best prepared;

life is life - you can pose as man hypotheticals as you like, and you can rationalize why you might or might not want to do a [particular art, but instead of theorizing, I personally have found that most growth occurs when one goes outside of one's comfort zone and tries something that one may not necessarily like, but couldn't hurt to have...

[anerlich]

I see more women rolling on the ground than I do men. But usually they are not trying to submit but just get in a dominant posistion to hit the other girl in the face.

You need to stay away from those bars.

Do you see what I am saying and why I disagree.

You may not see it because you are bias to your own ideology.

What you say keeps changing, and the reason people don't respect you is because you blather on and on with rambling, nonsensical, meaningless tripe that goes nowhere. All that rubbish about being made young again. Sheesh.

I'd like to believe you're not a complete moron, but there is too much evidence to the contrary in your posts.

[Edmund]

Does everyone do the bridge not using the neck. I was taught this way, have read many articles from gotch and burns on the importance of it. I do it against my mate and he is about 100kgs, Im only 55kgs. Without using your head you dont get the right arch in your back and the training helps with a good suplex (which is what my mate does if he gets me in the air.)

Does he suplex his head into the ground?

Do you think this is because it was used with rules that stated that shoulders on ground was a pin (as was already stated) or it is the best way to do it. I know BJJ guys mostly use their shoulders, but judo also uses the head and they beat helio so it must mean something.

Where did you get the idea that judo guys bridge onto their necks?
I've been doing Judo for 3 years and I've never learnt to bridge like that other than as a stretch for the spine.

[bennyvt]

I did judo when I was young and thats what I was taught. I also have video's of kosen judo, which is from the guy that beat helio by breaking his arm (check you youtube fordeo) and the old guys are bridging with their head. Theirs also that cool excerise where you go round in circles on your head which is a cool exercise to get your lateral neck muscles strong.
No he doesnt hit his head. My head is higher then his so mine hits and his is still off the ground.

[anerlich]

Benny,

a lot of BJJ schools will practice forward and back bridges on their heads for neck flexibility and strength, including the circle drill you discuss. The head is used in some techniques, but more like and extra hand or foot to control the guy or support yourself rather than a technique in itself. You might move through a headstand to pass the guard, for example.

Most BJJ guys respect Gotch. Furey is often derided because of his marketing practices, the fact that he doesn't compete or fight, and that his record is suspect.

[Edmund]

An exercise. It's not a good escape.

No he doesnt hit his head. My head is higher then his so mine hits and his is still off the ground.

You must be joking...

a 55kg guy being suplexed onto his head by a 100 kg guy who arches back but keeps his own head off the ground.

Well regardless of how unrealistic your story is, he's *not* landing on his head so it's hardly a risk to his neck is it?

Whereas you trying to lift the guy using your neck is risking yours.
And for what? Extra height?

Keep trying with your 100 kg friend though.

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay. Well I shared a little. But mostly know else has ideas on how to defeat a grappler with using grappling...Very interesting. Well if you guys ever get a chance. Ponder some ways a boxer could defeat a grappler or Muay Thai guy can defeat a grappler while using only their art?

yoshiyahu: what's your point? you are all over the place in terms of your "ifs" and qualifications;

look, it's simple: the more skill sets you have, the more ranges you can fight in effectively, the better your chances are of doing well in both competition like MMA and in a "real" street fight; of course, MMA is not like the "real" street, but if you look around it is probably the closest thing to it; of course, you can train TCMA in an "MMA" style, meaning that when you spar you work in whatever range you come into, from striking to grappling; I mean, what's the point to arguing all this? if you want to be a good fighter, you learn as much good stuff as is available to you: you find gyms / schools where people train hard, spar as realistically as possible, work against resistance in a "live" environment; and if you like WC, that's great, train it for all its worth; and it's fine not to do BJJ (or another grappling approach) if you don't like it, but in this day and age not having some ground skills in any context puts you behind the curve: if you are a only striker and someone else is only a grappler, it could go either way, but personally, I'd rather have some idea of what the grappler might want to do in order to be able to counter it with striking, and the best way to know what he's gonna do is to train it yourself, so it's in your own body (meaning that training against what a grappler might do is ok, but it's not as effective, IMPE, as getting into his perspective yourself)

also, you are getting stuck on "style versus style"; of course, to a certain degree it's the style (I mean, I would go for MT or BJJ before Kuk Sool Won in terms of practical effectiveness, that's for sure, LOL), but then you have to take account things like physical skill, strength, size, conditioning, emotional state, environment, sequence of events, etc. - all these variables make any "real" encounter highly unpredictable - one trains a variety of skill sets in order to try to control as many of these variables as possible; heck, walking down the street on the "correct" side projecting a confident attitude takes care of a lot of that as well (not being on that street at 3 AM also does); and sometimes you just can't avoid it, sh1t happens even to the best prepared;

life is life - you can pose as man hypotheticals as you like, and you can rationalize why you might or might not want to do a [particular art, but instead of theorizing, I personally have found that most growth occurs when one goes outside of one's comfort zone and tries something that one may not necessarily like, but couldn't hurt to have...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lets use the KISS principle:
Keep
It
Simple
Stupid.

Okay. Well I shared a little. But mostly know else has ideas on how to defeat a grappler with using grappling...Very interesting. Well if you guys ever get a chance. Ponder some ways a boxer could defeat a grappler or Muay Thai guy can defeat a grappler while using only their art?

First off, if any striker that has NO grappling experience wants to defeat a grappler, he must do what any grappler that has NO striking experience must do to defeat a striker:
Fight his fight and keep the opponent from fighting theirs.

Fact:
The only thing constant in ANY FIGHT is YOU, everything else will always be different.
So focus on what YOU do best.


How does this relate to MA and to fighting?
Simple.

There is no need for you to become a grappler to defeat a grappler.
HOWEVER, there is a HUGE NEED for you to train WITH grapplers to be able to defeat grapplers.
And if you have to ask "WHY"?, then you certainly need to train with good grapplers !!

[Edmund]

Okay. Well I shared a little. But mostly know else has ideas on how to defeat a grappler with using grappling...Very interesting. Well if you guys ever get a chance. Ponder some ways a boxer could defeat a grappler or Muay Thai guy can defeat a grappler while using only their art?

Lol. Your sharing stories are as dodgy as your hypothetical questions now.

As I said in the other thread before my posts disappeared, you constantly change your tune.

You asked a lot earlier on this thread about takedown defence like a total newbie. Now you state your WC friends are wrestlers who do sprawling training with you. You were basically trolling. You wanted an argument so you'd never be happy to just listen to an answer.

[Yoshiyahu]

Edmund if you ever get a chance. Ponder some ways a boxer could defeat a grappler or Muay Thai guy can defeat a grappler while using only their art?


And apply the same thing to Wing Chun

Lol. Your sharing stories are as dodgy as your hypothetical questions now.

As I said in the other thread before my posts disappeared, you constantly change your tune.

You asked a lot earlier on this thread about takedown defence like a total newbie. Now you state your WC friends are wrestlers who do sprawling training with you. You were basically trolling. You wanted an argument so you'd never be happy to just listen to an answer.

[Edmund]

Edmund if you ever get a chance. Ponder some ways a boxer could defeat a grappler or Muay Thai guy can defeat a grappler while using only their art?


And apply the same thing to Wing Chun

How about just like you: Kipping up and double palm strike.

Ponder that in bed while doing SLT.

[Achilles1987]

Salutations,
In my limited knowledge from GM Leung Ting's book "Wing Tsun Kuen" and from some net researches I have achieved to learn the fact that Ng Mui was actually the head master of White Crane and Snake styles of Siu Lam(Shao Lin) Monastery. The history of "the escape from temple while The Manchu Invasion" is still conserving its mystery but one thing I can see with my rookie eyes is that Wing Chun Kung Fu has many concepts and techniques directly taken from White Crane and Snake Styles.
So, Wing Chun is a close range combat system with improved effectiveness but still ground fighting is closer and if someone gets closer than your hitting range which is applied by WC practionners in fighting, remember kick and punch defence with quick pace through your opponent; that means one thing you have been WC'd! You have got to learn how to bridge and how to break the submissions with BJJ or any other martial arts techniques. I have friend who is training WT for 7 years and training BJJ for 1 year. When we train he sometimes use BJJ and I stare and become helpless but I have started to learn how to defend and counter attack in ground fighting with WingTsun mentality. It really works. Most of the systems promise you ground fighting but few of them teach you the most important parts. Now I feel more of a complete WC fighter. What I am trying to tell is that you don't have to wrestle to defend againist a wrestler but you have to WC him with quick and clever attacks and anti submission techniques which can be found with WC mentality.
My best regards and respect.

[Yoshiyahu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuu7kk9STAk


Check the above video out...


Achilles very good response. I really enjoyed it. Yes I think Snake and Crane fighting style are pretty cool. There are certain kungs with in both systems which I feel can also improve your WC techniques

keep up the good practice.

Salutations,
In my limited knowledge from GM Leung Ting's book "Wing Tsun Kuen" and from some net researches I have achieved to learn the fact that Ng Mui was actually the head master of White Crane and Snake styles of Siu Lam(Shao Lin) Monastery. The history of "the escape from temple while The Manchu Invasion" is still conserving its mystery but one thing I can see with my rookie eyes is that Wing Chun Kung Fu has many concepts and techniques directly taken from White Crane and Snake Styles.
So, Wing Chun is a close range combat system with improved effectiveness but still ground fighting is closer and if someone gets closer than your hitting range which is applied by WC practionners in fighting, remember kick and punch defence with quick pace through your opponent; that means one thing you have been WC'd! You have got to learn how to bridge and how to break the submissions with BJJ or any other martial arts techniques. I have friend who is training WT for 7 years and training BJJ for 1 year. When we train he sometimes use BJJ and I stare and become helpless but I have started to learn how to defend and counter attack in ground fighting with WingTsun mentality. It really works. Most of the systems promise you ground fighting but few of them teach you the most important parts. Now I feel more of a complete WC fighter. What I am trying to tell is that you don't have to wrestle to defend againist a wrestler but you have to WC him with quick and clever attacks and anti submission techniques which can be found with WC mentality.
My best regards and respect.