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Thread: How to defeat a Wrestler

  1. #46
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    Long Range

    Long Range kicks are not apart of WC. Bruce Lee added Long Range kicks to his art?

    So should a WC man also cross train a style like Karate or Muay Thai to get good at fighting long range ?


    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianK View Post
    No because the core set of techniques one learns and applies, are very similar.

    If you want to be good at fencing you learn fencing, not shooting.

    If you want to be good at fighting in the clinch and grappling range, you need to go outside of wing chun and learn from the styles that include that curriculum.

    You cannot be a WC Purist or Any Style-Purist, its counter-productive and honestly, completely ****ing stupid. If you care about the combat part - You learn everything that is effective in combat. Grappling is not part of WC's curriculum, thus you need to look elsewhere to fill that gap. It doesn't even have the most common anti-grappling defenses, thus you need to look elsewhere for that as well.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    Long Range kicks are not apart of WC. Bruce Lee added Long Range kicks to his art?

    So should a WC man also cross train a style like Karate or Muay Thai to get good at fighting long range ?
    IF there is something in those systems he feels he would like to have why not?
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  3. #48
    what is an example of a long range kick

  4. #49
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    spinning back kick.

    GSP really hurt Matt Hughes with one of them when he won the title from Matt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    better than pointless drama, no?
    True that.
    “An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.” – Friedrich Engels

  6. #51
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    From bullshido: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82076

    Hey all. It's been a while. Here's a recount to an encounter I had recently with a self-proclaimed Kung Fu Master, who claimed experience in Wing Chun and a pressure point based system of some sort. I figured you would enjoy this.

    This happened as a result of a discussion in a russian-speaking martial arts forum, where he was claiming that his groin attacks will neutralize the mount position every time. in addition to that, he also made numerous other claims, including only targeting pressure points when fighting, all other targets being ineffective by comparison and such. Believe me when I tell you that this dude claimed he could do a _lot_ of things. Had this happened here, it would certainly have been a mega-thread

    During one of these discussions I offered to demonstrate the fact that he will not be able to get to my groin when mounted. He lives on the east coast, in a place I travel to quite a bit. As such conversations go a lot of the time, we exchanged a couple of emails and I forgot about it for something like a year. Recently, in a heated discussion with another forum member, he challenged him to a fight and used me as an example of someone who has been ducking him all this time. Naturally, this caught my attention. Two weeks later I just happened to be on the east coast visiting my family and I set up a time to drop buy said Master's house for a demonstration. Here's how it went down:

    I arrived at his house at 10 AM as promised. At about the same time a friend of the Kung Fu Master's (KFM for short) arrived with a video camera. I change, stretch a little, and it begins.

    Our original dispute started with attacking the groin when mounted, so KFM lies down on his back, I take the mount, and we start. KFM tries to reach for my groin, naturally he can't, I move up into high mount, isolate the arm, and keylock him. One thing to note, however, is that it is unnerving to have someone try to grab your nads in a fight. Not effective, but unnerving nonetheless.

    We reset, and KFM tries to defend by manipulating some pressure points on my face and neck. The pressure points don't produce anything beyond minor discomfort. He then tries to manipulate pressure points near my floating ribs, also known as tickling, which actually has some effect - I take his arm and kimura him (or, rather, if I remmeber correctly, kimura-into-armbar him). I take this time to show that the mount is an awesome position to eye-gouge since it lets you completely immobilize your opponents head and he has no way to escape.

    After that, we get up and (with me not defending at all) KFM tries to press all the same pressure points again, one on my throat, one where the jaw-bone connects to the skull, and one somewhere on the side of my head. They are mildly uncomfortable.

    Then we moved on to sparring from standing up.

    As a lyrical aside, there's an old russian proverb that in every bet between two people there's an idiot and there's a *******. At this point, I am trying hard not to be too much of a *******.

    So we start from standup. Neither of us are wearing gloves. Not having done any standup at all in the past few years, I hit him way too hard a couple of times and take my time to apologize. Originally, this was going to be a full-contact-gung-sao-to-the-death (tm) but I'm down somewhere at 30% power. When we reset I, not wanting to hurt the KFM, clinch, gently lower him to the ground, take mount, and begin applying shoulder pressure when he submits. This is the part I actually have on video.

    Gung-sao over.

    After that, KFM realizes that he has boxing gloves after all. I put them on, he doesn't (so as not to interfere with his special punching technique), and we do something like a minute of stand-up, with me hitting him in the head at will (due to the whackyass stance with the neck straight and chin floating around) when he submits again.

    I go home.

    Amazingly enough, KFM posts some of the video, shuts up, and goes away. That's the primary reason I am not using names - I did not honestly expect him to keep his promise.



    http://memoryofadream.com/photograph...challenge2.mpg


    He has since posted a two-sentence "thank you" note and disappeared from the original forum. He made no excuses for anything and kept his word about releasing the video.

    At this point, there's basically two ways for him to go - he can continue stewing in his "kung fu" crowd, slowly rationalizing away this experience or he can open his eyes and change his approach to training. I'm hoping for the latter, though I'm not sure it's actually going to happen - he was very far off in the left field when we met. He was actually pretty certain that he would swat me away like a fly with his superior street-oriented martial art.

  7. #52
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    LOL, good post.

  8. #53
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    Great story

    Wow. You sound like a great fighter. I could learn alot from fighting you. I think you could help me find my weaknesses and give me something to improve on. I hope one day I can spar with you. Win or Loose it would be great experience. No to death match,. Maybe some mma gloves and go semi hard to hard contact. I think it would great since you have alot of experience in ground techniques. I can really work on my defense sometime.

    If your ever in U.City let me know..

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    From bullshido: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82076

    Hey all. It's been a while. Here's a recount to an encounter I had recently with a self-proclaimed Kung Fu Master, who claimed experience in Wing Chun and a pressure point based system of some sort. I figured you would enjoy this.

    This happened as a result of a discussion in a russian-speaking martial arts forum, where he was claiming that his groin attacks will neutralize the mount position every time. in addition to that, he also made numerous other claims, including only targeting pressure points when fighting, all other targets being ineffective by comparison and such. Believe me when I tell you that this dude claimed he could do a _lot_ of things. Had this happened here, it would certainly have been a mega-thread

    During one of these discussions I offered to demonstrate the fact that he will not be able to get to my groin when mounted. He lives on the east coast, in a place I travel to quite a bit. As such conversations go a lot of the time, we exchanged a couple of emails and I forgot about it for something like a year. Recently, in a heated discussion with another forum member, he challenged him to a fight and used me as an example of someone who has been ducking him all this time. Naturally, this caught my attention. Two weeks later I just happened to be on the east coast visiting my family and I set up a time to drop buy said Master's house for a demonstration. Here's how it went down:

    I arrived at his house at 10 AM as promised. At about the same time a friend of the Kung Fu Master's (KFM for short) arrived with a video camera. I change, stretch a little, and it begins.

    Our original dispute started with attacking the groin when mounted, so KFM lies down on his back, I take the mount, and we start. KFM tries to reach for my groin, naturally he can't, I move up into high mount, isolate the arm, and keylock him. One thing to note, however, is that it is unnerving to have someone try to grab your nads in a fight. Not effective, but unnerving nonetheless.

    We reset, and KFM tries to defend by manipulating some pressure points on my face and neck. The pressure points don't produce anything beyond minor discomfort. He then tries to manipulate pressure points near my floating ribs, also known as tickling, which actually has some effect - I take his arm and kimura him (or, rather, if I remmeber correctly, kimura-into-armbar him). I take this time to show that the mount is an awesome position to eye-gouge since it lets you completely immobilize your opponents head and he has no way to escape.

    After that, we get up and (with me not defending at all) KFM tries to press all the same pressure points again, one on my throat, one where the jaw-bone connects to the skull, and one somewhere on the side of my head. They are mildly uncomfortable.

    Then we moved on to sparring from standing up.

    As a lyrical aside, there's an old russian proverb that in every bet between two people there's an idiot and there's a *******. At this point, I am trying hard not to be too much of a *******.

    So we start from standup. Neither of us are wearing gloves. Not having done any standup at all in the past few years, I hit him way too hard a couple of times and take my time to apologize. Originally, this was going to be a full-contact-gung-sao-to-the-death (tm) but I'm down somewhere at 30% power. When we reset I, not wanting to hurt the KFM, clinch, gently lower him to the ground, take mount, and begin applying shoulder pressure when he submits. This is the part I actually have on video.

    Gung-sao over.

    After that, KFM realizes that he has boxing gloves after all. I put them on, he doesn't (so as not to interfere with his special punching technique), and we do something like a minute of stand-up, with me hitting him in the head at will (due to the whackyass stance with the neck straight and chin floating around) when he submits again.

    I go home.

    Amazingly enough, KFM posts some of the video, shuts up, and goes away. That's the primary reason I am not using names - I did not honestly expect him to keep his promise.



    http://memoryofadream.com/photograph...challenge2.mpg


    He has since posted a two-sentence "thank you" note and disappeared from the original forum. He made no excuses for anything and kept his word about releasing the video.

    At this point, there's basically two ways for him to go - he can continue stewing in his "kung fu" crowd, slowly rationalizing away this experience or he can open his eyes and change his approach to training. I'm hoping for the latter, though I'm not sure it's actually going to happen - he was very far off in the left field when we met. He was actually pretty certain that he would swat me away like a fly with his superior street-oriented martial art.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    From bullshido: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82076

    Hey all. It's been a while. Here's a recount to an encounter I had recently with a self-proclaimed Kung Fu Master, who claimed experience in Wing Chun and a pressure point based system of some sort. I figured you would enjoy this.

    This happened as a result of a discussion in a russian-speaking martial arts forum, where he was claiming that his groin attacks will neutralize the mount position every time. in addition to that, he also made numerous other claims, including only targeting pressure points when fighting, all other targets being ineffective by comparison and such. Believe me when I tell you that this dude claimed he could do a _lot_ of things. Had this happened here, it would certainly have been a mega-thread

    During one of these discussions I offered to demonstrate the fact that he will not be able to get to my groin when mounted. He lives on the east coast, in a place I travel to quite a bit. As such conversations go a lot of the time, we exchanged a couple of emails and I forgot about it for something like a year. Recently, in a heated discussion with another forum member, he challenged him to a fight and used me as an example of someone who has been ducking him all this time. Naturally, this caught my attention. Two weeks later I just happened to be on the east coast visiting my family and I set up a time to drop buy said Master's house for a demonstration. Here's how it went down:

    I arrived at his house at 10 AM as promised. At about the same time a friend of the Kung Fu Master's (KFM for short) arrived with a video camera. I change, stretch a little, and it begins.

    Our original dispute started with attacking the groin when mounted, so KFM lies down on his back, I take the mount, and we start. KFM tries to reach for my groin, naturally he can't, I move up into high mount, isolate the arm, and keylock him. One thing to note, however, is that it is unnerving to have someone try to grab your nads in a fight. Not effective, but unnerving nonetheless.

    We reset, and KFM tries to defend by manipulating some pressure points on my face and neck. The pressure points don't produce anything beyond minor discomfort. He then tries to manipulate pressure points near my floating ribs, also known as tickling, which actually has some effect - I take his arm and kimura him (or, rather, if I remmeber correctly, kimura-into-armbar him). I take this time to show that the mount is an awesome position to eye-gouge since it lets you completely immobilize your opponents head and he has no way to escape.

    After that, we get up and (with me not defending at all) KFM tries to press all the same pressure points again, one on my throat, one where the jaw-bone connects to the skull, and one somewhere on the side of my head. They are mildly uncomfortable.

    Then we moved on to sparring from standing up.

    As a lyrical aside, there's an old russian proverb that in every bet between two people there's an idiot and there's a *******. At this point, I am trying hard not to be too much of a *******.

    So we start from standup. Neither of us are wearing gloves. Not having done any standup at all in the past few years, I hit him way too hard a couple of times and take my time to apologize. Originally, this was going to be a full-contact-gung-sao-to-the-death (tm) but I'm down somewhere at 30% power. When we reset I, not wanting to hurt the KFM, clinch, gently lower him to the ground, take mount, and begin applying shoulder pressure when he submits. This is the part I actually have on video.

    Gung-sao over.

    After that, KFM realizes that he has boxing gloves after all. I put them on, he doesn't (so as not to interfere with his special punching technique), and we do something like a minute of stand-up, with me hitting him in the head at will (due to the whackyass stance with the neck straight and chin floating around) when he submits again.

    I go home.

    Amazingly enough, KFM posts some of the video, shuts up, and goes away. That's the primary reason I am not using names - I did not honestly expect him to keep his promise.



    http://memoryofadream.com/photograph...challenge2.mpg


    He has since posted a two-sentence "thank you" note and disappeared from the original forum. He made no excuses for anything and kept his word about releasing the video.

    At this point, there's basically two ways for him to go - he can continue stewing in his "kung fu" crowd, slowly rationalizing away this experience or he can open his eyes and change his approach to training. I'm hoping for the latter, though I'm not sure it's actually going to happen - he was very far off in the left field when we met. He was actually pretty certain that he would swat me away like a fly with his superior street-oriented martial art.
    If I had a buck fro everyone one of these situations, I'd be in the Cayman's right now.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    Wow. You sound like a great fighter. I could learn alot from fighting you. I think you could help me find my weaknesses and give me something to improve on. I hope one day I can spar with you. Win or Loose it would be great experience. No to death match,. Maybe some mma gloves and go semi hard to hard contact. I think it would great since you have alot of experience in ground techniques. I can really work on my defense sometime.

    If your ever in U.City let me know..

    .
    Dude, that wasn't me in the video.

    And I'm not a great fighter. There are no great fighters in WCK. None.

    If you want to see your weaknesses go to a good MMA school or to a good MT school. If you won't do THAT, you'll never know.

  11. #56
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    Long Range kicks are not apart of WC.
    Incorrect.

    The sidekick to the body in the TWC dummy set is about as long range as you can get.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
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  12. #57
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    WC Kicks

    Well let me requalify the statement. When I speak of long range I actually mean long range kicks to upper body. WC kicks are particularly Low level kicks and some or mid level. But not higher than the Waist. Do you agree?

    An my statement would be to fight someone skilled at delievering knock outs with round house kicks to head or side kicks to chin wouldn't you also need to study a Long Range fighting style?

    Or would you just need to tweak your WC?



    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    Incorrect.

    The sidekick to the body in the TWC dummy set is about as long range as you can get.

  13. #58
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    Experience

    I wasn't speaking about the video. I was speaking about how you defeated the Quasi Kung Fu Master. You sound pretty skilled.

    I would love to learn by fighting you!


    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    Dude, that wasn't me in the video.

    And I'm not a great fighter. There are no great fighters in WCK. None.

    If you want to see your weaknesses go to a good MMA school or to a good MT school. If you won't do THAT, you'll never know.

  14. #59
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    Well let me requalify the statement.
    Whatever.

    Yes, most WC kicks in the forms are low or mid level.

    An my statement would be to fight someone skilled at delievering knock outs with round house kicks to head or side kicks to chin wouldn't you also need to study a Long Range fighting style?

    Or would you just need to tweak your WC?
    You need to learn how these kicks work and at least train against them to be able to defend. Obvious except to the wilfully ignorant, IMO.

    High kicks for most people take longer and expose you more than lower level kicks. However practicing high kicks can improve your mid level kickcing ability. For most people, kicks to the head work really well when your opponent is on the floor.

    My WC instructor had 37 pro kickboxing matches and over 100 amateur. In those days in kickboxing the rules prevented you from kicking below the waist. To compete he needed to develop high kicks. He won a good proportion of his matches with kick KO's to the head.

    Terence thinks there are no good fighters in WC, but he's wrong. Plus recognising that spoils his ability to preach about what he doesn't practise.

    Both my instructor and I practice high kicks, boxing and wrestling. Wv'e also been doing BJJ and MMA with other instructors for about 10 years.

    I started KF with a Goju karete Nidan and JJJ black belt who switched to Chinese styles and taught a very effective mix of CMA.. With that start, my attitude to stylistic purists who put down other arts is similar to the attitide I have to religious fundamentalists and holocaust deniers.

    "I only study one art" - what are you, an underachiever?
    Last edited by anerlich; 03-05-2009 at 02:47 PM.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

    WC Academy BJJ/MMA Academy Surviving Violent Crime TCM Info
    Don't like my posts? Challenge me!

  15. #60
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    I look at it like this for one on one if it goes to the ground the ground fighter will usually win. However you can knock a couple guys out with wck. Try ground fighting multiple people and see what happens when the guy in the mount's buddy comes to kick you in the head a couple times yadi dadi.

    I personally do both WCK and now BJJ but I do WCK standing and enter with WCK concepts and principles sometimes when I break the structure or am able to turn my opponent then I may go into a take down but I mostly savethe ground fighting for the ground and I think people should know both.

    Huen sao (circling hand however it's spelled) is a good way to keep a grappler from getting the grips they want to go for a take down and in the mean time you try to cause as much damage as possible with your WCK , true fighting is about survival so make every strike count.

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