"These aren't the droids you're looking for."Originally Posted by Taryn P.
Cybernetic Polymath
"These aren't the droids you're looking for."
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and to forget his own." -Cicero
That was Zen, this is Tao
There's definitely psychology involved in fighting. However, it appears that in this case the subject was hypnotized in advance of what we are seeing in the video. That's not quite the same thing.
'Talk is cheap because there is an excess of supply over demand'
Banned
Yes.
If all dim mak was was effectively hitting or grabbing the *genuine* weak points of the body, then boxers, MT fighters, bjj fighters, etc. would all be doing dim mak. They're not. But they are attacking the *genuine* weak points of the body.
Why don't boxers, for example, have seminars on attacking "pressure points"? Why aren't there articles in boxing magazines on attacking "pressure points"? And so on.
Dim mak is a fantasy associated with attacking the weak points of the human body. "Pressure points" is part of that nonsense.
Registered User
When I was a young teenager, all of these Making your WC deadly was a hot stuffs. At that time, Ko matches and MT challengers and Kyokushin world tournament were hot for young people.
So, is it true there is Dim Mark? yes.
So, is it true there are people who train to penetrate rattan body guard in TCMA LoiToi? yes. it is true.
So, is it true there are different method of training the iron shirt or iron body or iron palm? yes. It is true.
and in fact, there were a TCMA fighter later was caught due to certain illegal issue by law enforcement, but because his iron body, the law officers has to ask for advice from other TCMA sifus to break that seal of iron body, until then the person can take the law officer's beating with ease.
So, in WC does it have special power? such as how the story of IpMan broken the Qi seal of the lady....ect. Yes, those exist but those knowledge are rare today.
Some days, It is better off all of those stuffs were forgotten or dis believe because one less weapon in this world is better then people keep searching for more and more powerfull weapons.
On the other hand, as I pointed out above. why does one want to put those survival thoughts in one's mind, pretend one is trap..... and think about making themself deadly? Those thoughts are just so terrible that usually it harm oneself before others.
as for those dim mark, those iron palm..... iron shin training..... with today's human taking mostly process food, chances are those training could harm one more then benifit it. Our body today is like a weak plastic compare with those who eat nature food decades ago or our great grandmother time.
I really concern about this type of topic disccusion because it could mislead one badly.
and as for the Dim Mark stuffs? well, dont try it because there often a subtle effect which could cause long term sickness if it was not totally clear out. western medicine cant detect it and clear it.
Since everyone has thier karma, no one could change others life. However, I post this above here hoping some one who read this know. dont walk this path for it is not a benificial one but could cause serious issues and result in consequence too heavy for one's whole life.
playing with weapon is nothing fun, and the ancient chinese says that " those who is good in swiming will die drowning. Let's just hope constructive and positive come out from these discussion.
Best Regards
Last edited by Hendrik; 03-06-2009 at 09:43 PM.
Registered User
TCMA is all nonsense to you.
To me this line of thought, with your ability to speculate without any experience in learning TCMA, your belief that you know without training directly, and you have a clue about TCMA, that is fantasy.
All this talk about suggestion, hynotism, mind science to explain TCMA phenomena is just wild speculation. Again most people just watch television and quote darren brown, chris angel, magic shows. Showmanship, has nothing to do with TCMA
Have you been even a part of this kind of showmanship? Or been hypnotise? Or given suggestions so you were Koed in a demo? Please share your personal experience.
What do people use as reference? People like Geogre Dillman and his flawed public demo and silly reasons of toes nullifying Tien Hsieh. Or Ashida Kim and his silly demo on a animal trap, calling it dim Mak.
Why has no body quoted any reference from China? Because most people have not gone to search the source. Everyone is a youtube master, I see therefore I know.
Here, dim mak is shown on an animal and effects recorded, let me see someone explain how the pig was hynotise, given suggestion to lie down etc....
http://www.56.com/u59/v_MjYwOTEzNDQ.html
Weak skeletal structure is not pressure points, example your jaw.
Hsieh Point- One can strike Stomach 5 and create damage.
Skeletal structure- When boxers hit the the jaw, it creates shock to the brain, hence KO.
Not the same as hitting a point.
And Hsieh points are not just used for striking, also used for grabbing and seizing.
Some styles are like a huge bat hitting you.
Some styles are like a pin stabbing you. Others like a knife. It depends on what weapon you use, fist, fingers, phoenix eye etc....
And your whole body is a weapon- known as 7 stars.
Tien Hsieh is not exclusive to China
Bujinkan Koto ryu Kyusho/Atemi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R96rWOoXU-U
kyusho Oyata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILwSjm44Z7Q
India Martial art - Kalaripayattu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B09zqMiA4k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg-aBGF7mA0
Dont start saying their culture and beliefs are nonsense too.
When I go to bangkok to do muay thai or drop in the local gym for some boxing with the guys, I love how they train- with Heart, and they dont go around bad mouthing others, or saying how superior they are, or other arts suck. They train with heart. They realise they dont know it all, and other people have differences in interpretation of what works.
You are using a english dictionary to read chinese culture and words. If you think one can get somewhere this way, IMHO, this is fantasy.
Last edited by Shadow_warrior8; 03-07-2009 at 04:45 AM.
讲你不听,听你不明,明你不做,做你又做错,错你又不认,认你又不改,改你又不服,不服你又不讲；那你要我 怎么办？
Wing Chun Fighter
How to you train your hands so your fingers can strike pressure and render the power the through the fingers?
Banned
You can't. Finger strikes are more fantasy. The biu jee (motion and form) has nothing to do with striking with the fingers. The only thing you'll get from trying finger strikes in fighting is jammed/broken fingers.
Last edited by t_niehoff; 03-07-2009 at 07:10 AM.
Wing Chun Fighter
Why did Bruce lee practice Push Ups on his fingers, Thrusting his fingers into a Bucket of gravel and hitting Targets with his fingers?
I am just woundering if Bruce Lee was fantasy based too?
Snake in the Grass
There are two main ways of learning how to strike with the fingers: internal and external.
External will usually render the most quickly-noticeable results, but can often lead to decreased sensitivity and the possibility of damaged fingers if mistakes happen during training.
Internal finger training involves various types of qigong that work on your projection and alignment.
After sufficient training in either (or both), it is really quite easy to use finger strikes, even in full-speed combat.
But, like all conditioning methods, it does take time. If finger strikes are applied with power before you have the proper strength or technique, yes, you will get the jammed fingers that are apparently the result of "fantasy" techniques.
As I said before, it is very common for people to see Dim Mak as fantasy or mind games, but, in my personal experience, there is definitely something to it. How much of the ancient Chinese theories are actually correct and how much is just mythical mumbo jumbo, I can't say for sure. But at least some part of it works and can be utilized as an effective tool in the martial arts.
What do you call someone who practices Dim Mak on themselves?
Dum Fuk!
Banned
GOOD POST AND THANK YOU.
Very true. I have across many people like him here in the forums. They take a few superficial aspects from kung fu to the ring together with a partner and then hit each other in the head for 10 minutes and call it "functional" kung fu training....lol.
Shadow, believe me when I say that in the West the confused people always speculate.
I don't know about you but I am not holding my breath for t_niehoff's explanations.
That is because most people making money from TCMA here in the West are afraid of the source. The source will show most of the Western "kung fu kings" to be con-men or at least ignorant.
This forum is full of YouTube masters. Some even make YouTube video clips of themselves breaking slabs and "kung fu" fighting. The tragedy is that even when most of them see they don't necessarily know. Here in the west it is very difficult to find good kung fu references and when you do find real references then nobody believes what you say because everybody else seems to have bad references.
T_niehoff will probably say that the pig was paid money before hand to collapse...lol.
Hence the chin-na applications in pressure point fighting. Shadow, I have noticed that some people here think that Chin-na is stand up grappling and nothing else..lol,lol.
Thank you for the interesting links.
Hopefully after this T_niehoff will not say anything more.
When I lived in Brasil I came across many Brasilian Ju Jitsu people who were very respectful of kung fu. Here in the forum the story is different. They are respectful until you tell them that they are lacking in kung fu knowledge, then they show their real faces!
And it is!
It is amazing how many people in the West have taken an enchant and rich art(s) like kung fu and turned it into a McDonald martial art. When one criticizes them, then they say that they have "improved" kung fu and made it more "modern" and some of them even go on to insult indirectly (and sometimes directly) the Chinese culture.
Quite often these are the same people that complain when I call them knuckleheads!
Registered User
Can you please share what you have expose to?
Best Regards
Registered (L)user
I guess you have to weigh up th most effective ways of reaching your goals.
If your aim is self defence, is it gong to be a better strategy to learn effective mechanics for hitting people hard to obvious vulnerable and relatively easy to hit places (jaw, solar plexus, eyes, throat, floating rib, etc.) or to learn to "cultivate chi", strike the dim mak points accurately and/or with the right energy, etc.?
If you can't fight without the quasi-mystical stuff, you won't b able to fight with it. That's for sure.
If the touch knockout and other Dim Mak skills exist, no one on this board can explain or demonstrate them. Not to discount everyone's personal experiences, they are valid to them, but ... in the age of guns, why can't anyone demonstrate or describe exactly how this is done?
An acquaintance of mine has travelled and explored the MA's of the world for decades. He has high ranks in BN Silat and BJJ, but has studied everything. He visited George Dillman to experience his pressure point stuff. It didn't work on him, and he was told that "his chi must flow backwards, and that's why it doesn't work on you". OTOH, he visited Gene Lebell and got choked out in a few seconds.
Richard Dawkins has written at length on the reality of individual and mass hallucination.
I've posted here before lkfmdc's extract of an old Chinese newspaper article who challenged all comers for decades. He kept waiting to be Dim Mak'd but it never happened, even when he was fighting so called masters of Dim Mak. He retired undefeated, lived to old age and did not die of any mysterious diseases brought on by the Delayed Death Touch.
I've been around this stuff for a long time. Another guy I trained with could do a lot of tricks, breaking, nerve point manpulation,having stuff broken on his head with a sledgehammer, the watermelon sword cut on the stomach, lifting heavy object suspended from pins stuck through his flesh, etc. but he explained (not in detail, I'm interested in KF, not stage magic) how they were all done.
Can you explain Dim Mak to me? Demonstrate it? Really? Saying "my Master can but it's a secret" ain't good enough. There's megabucks to be made in Vegas! Immoral? Selling out? Think of all the charities he could support and good he could do with that money!
The only thing my guy (the second guy) saw that he couldn't explain was one guy he claimed to have seen in Asia who could walk and roll around on broken glass without getting cut. But I never saw that. (while this guy could do the tricks, he told more than a few porkies and was not a particularly good citizen in his personal life).
My first instructor was EXTREMELY good at attacking nerve points with Chin-na on the human body. Head, torso, arms, legs.. Being his uke in demo's was agony. But this is not Dim Mak and he will tell you that.
Can you do it? Explain how it's done?
Last edited by anerlich; 03-07-2009 at 11:36 PM.
"Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
"We are all one" - Genki Sudo
"We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
"Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander
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Snake in the Grass
My own training progessed as follows:
External training
-Striking repeatedly into a container of sand or small rocks with the finger tips. Beginning slowly and gradually increasing the speed of the strikes as you improve.
-Striking a wooden board repeatedly with the fingers. Beginning very lightly with a focus on proper structure and alignment of the fingers, slowly increasing the strength of the strikes.
-Hammering nails about half way into a piece of wood and then trying to pull them out with the thumb, index finger, and middle finger. As you get stronger, pound the nails further into the wood, making it more difficult to get a grip.
-With all of these techniques, make sure to quickly treat any cuts and bruises you acquire, and do not try to increase the speed or strength too soon. These take time.
My internal training didn't have anything specific to finger strikes.
The only internal training I've done extensively is Eight Brocades, Marrow Washing, Tendon Exchanging, and Five Organ Breathing. Whether or not these had anything to do with actual conditioning and martial arts training, I can't say for sure, but it certainly can't hurt.
I have heard of several "Internal Techniques" that focus on improving finger strength and projection, but I have not been taught the specifics of these and can only speculate on their effectiveness.
What do you call someone who practices Dim Mak on themselves?
Dum Fuk!
Snake in the Grass
You are correct.
In my opinion, if you just want to learn to defend yourself, go learn Krav Maga, those guys are awesome!
The "delayed death" stuff is probably just myth. If someone dies of kidney failure a week after taking a phoenix-eye fist to the lower back, that would be obvious. But all the talk of "exactly this many days after being poked here you will get terribly sick and unless you get poked in this other place to reverse the effect you will die" was probably just made up to scare opponents and bring in ignorant students.
I've done my best to impart my own knowledge and experience on the subject in my posts above. So far, all I can do is cause opponents to experience reflexive muscle spasms, lingering pain/numbness, and occasionally loss of balance after being hit in certain points. I have not practiced knocking people out, shutting down certain vital organs, or killing them. That stuff sounds too dangerous to try, whether or not it really works. Even if it's just a bunch of crap, I don't want to take the chance with the people I care about.
I would call that Dim Mak; using pressure points (either grabbing or striking) to give yourself an advantage in a fight.
Last edited by Chazmek; 03-07-2009 at 11:42 PM.
What do you call someone who practices Dim Mak on themselves?
Dum Fuk!
Wing Chun Fighter
Well It seems we are way off topic. I started this thread to discuss issues of making your WC more deadly. Such as training your palms and fist to break stone. Training your fingers to pierce through flesh or damage soft parts of the body.
Learning techniques to break the neck or rip the jaw bone.
As for strikes that have delayed killing effects. It depends on persons body. Some will die from a strike that is really hard. Someone use to getting hit may not die. Some people will live a couple a days and then die. Some boxers or just really strong weight lifters have the ability to punch so hard they can actually burst your spleen or kidneys. An Example of killing someone in seven steps would be to generate enough power to fracture the ribs of your opponent and cause a floating rib to puncture their heart if they walk around too much. That is Yang Power. Somebody like Mike Tyson could hit you hard enough that he could cause your heart to be ruptured or collasp your lung. Somebody like Mike Tyson who studied iron palm or just properly conditioned his fist to hit a walk bag with steel shots could even cause your kidneys to ruptured with enough force.
Its not some mystical thought power. Its practice,conditioning and training. The reason I use these western examples is because a boxer is never going to say his power comes from Chi. Although you develop Chi from soft techniques. To deliver a blow like iron sand palm you need also Yang as well as well Yin power.
Even when some throws a punch or kick. The blows are not soft and slow. They are hard,heavy and fast. Otherwise their will no penetration,Fajin or Explosiveness. With out the power your strike is useless. Even the Chinese hit some sort of heavy bag. Be it a sand dummy,Bag of Rice or Sand and lets not forget some Kung Fu Systems hit hanging flower pots or Rice Wine juggs. When their fist were strong enough to shatter the clay works then they had power to damage. Even in Karate they hit the makawara board and break bricks. This too is developing the Chi to issue dim mak. But only after you ahve achieve the conditioning and training can you even begin to strike someone pressure points.
As for pressure points. A screw driver can be use to attack pressure points or a solid metal ball point pin. So even if you use something like Phillips head screwdriver as pressure point striker you still need to use force to penetrate. Or as they say in Cantonese/Mandarin You need some FaJin(Yang).
There is no magical mystical soft touch that can kill. If there is I would love to learn it. If it works then I should be able to use it to chop wood. That way I no longer need a axe to fill the fire place with wood. If your Dim Mak doesn't work on non-living objects than it may not be dimak. The best way to demostrate dim mak would be in competition or actual match. If someone could knock someone out with Dim Mak while in a cage fight then maybe its some truth to it. When I say Dim Mak i mean magical no force or power soft and slow touch. I do not mean the real deal holyfield hits to your body or face that could kill you. Why do you think Boxers are no longer allowed to fight bare handed in the UFC. Because they could kill somebody. A really strong boxer has enough Chi and Lik in his fist that he connects to right parts of a person face or body they would eventually die from too much pressure.
True story. In my town years ago their were kids who were really in watching wrestling on television that they tried many of techniques on each other. From sleeper holds to suplexes. One kid was put to sleep until he fell unconscious. Something must have be wrong because when he went home the next day he died. His parents didn't even know that he had been put to sleep by a wrestling move earlier that day. The boy died in his sleep. I believe one kid was charge with involuntary manslaughter. By now they are adults an the charge is more than likely exspunged from his record. But was it dim mak the kid was using. Could be. Was it Chi...yes everyone has chi from the air you breathe to food you eat. You also gain chi from practice. When you practice Kung Fu,KickBoxing,BJJ, Wrestling or any other fighting style your cultivating chi.
Let me bore you with one more story. When I was alot younger I had a girlfriend who went to court for involuntary manslaugther. She fought another girl. The girl died three days later. Reason being she had contusions on her head. She received them from my Ex-Girlfriend. Now my Ex was like one hundred and ten pounds at a height about 5'3" So she wasn't a big girl. But boy did she hit hard. I know because she liked to spar. An sometimes should would let go the power. I have been hit hard by guys bigger than me before. An guys stronger than me. But she hit so hard you would see stars for a second. So I can imagine if another girl or even guy was unable to advoid being hit by her multiple times in the same spot she could possibly dim mak them too. Like the poor girl that died three days later.
Now imagine someone with enough power knock someone out or rupture a spleen. An give this person a Martial Arts style that allows them to open up their opponent for strikes like White Crane Style,Snake or Bak Mei. If this person was to attack to lets say Throat,Temples,Upper Dan Tien or some other point on the body numerous times with similiar amount of power. Can you imagine they could possibly kill that person?
Just food for thought!
My personal belief is as a followed. Most people claim that from a palm strike they can either send a Foe flying off their feet in the air or they rupture a organ.
Well to do both I sugges you do the following
1.Practice palm striking a 400lbs Heavy Sand Bag With Fajin. 1000 times a day.
(The Goal is to make bag move Further and Further each day).
2.Practice Chi Kung and Forms
(Meditate on emitting Energy through your palms)
3.Practice Iron Palm on bag
(Use beans,sand,gravel and then steel shots)
4.Start breaking bricks
(One-Two-Three-Four-Five and six bricks at one time).
5.Do one thousand push ups on bricks standing straight up a day.
(Do Every day)
6.Change your Diet
(Take Vitamin supplements-eat veggies-go organic-drink water)
7.Run Five miles a day.
If someone does the following each day. I believe personally they wont have much of a life but they will demostrate dim mak abilities in a fight. Why because they have the conditioning to do so. Is mystical No, Just hard work. That is Kung Fu!
Last edited by Yoshiyahu; 03-08-2009 at 12:34 AM. Reason: spelling
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