Bodhidharma's Influence and what Shaolin means to TCMA

[LFJ]

Shaolin was already founded and established as a buddhist monastery before TaMo showed up. Story goes that he was denied entrance for 9 years.

who tells that story?

[David Jamieson]

who tells that story?

...the story that Ta Mo was denied entrance and subsequently sat in a cave for 9 years until he was admitted is one of the most common legends about him.

There's a cave in fact not far from the monastery that is said to be the cave where ta mo sat and meditated.

there's other freaky myths associated with this as well, such as the cutting of the eyelids and the tea bushes that spring forth from them and so on.

Because Ta Mo was also attributed with tea drinking in the monastery in order to maintain mental awareness.

[SimonM]

can you clairfy i dont understand

Luzhishen broke basically every standard rule of the sangha during his tenure at Wutaishan. He fought, he ate meat, he got drunk and broke stuff, etc.

By the end of his life he achieved enlightenment by dint his life experiences.

This contains much that helps to understand ch'an and much that helps to understand Shaolin. LOL

It was very clear... provided you know who Luzhishen is.

[GeneChing]

Check our archives: Bodhidharma(damo)

You should also examine Meat, Wine, and Fighting Monks: Did Shaolin Monks breach Buddhist Dietary Regulations? by Dr. Meir Shahar

[SimonM]

Read it way back.

My point about Shaolin was mainly about non-verbal communication of Dharma, not the wine drinking.

I was just not stealing the hint of koan-ness from Bawang's excellent post.

[MightyB]

Check our archives: Bodhidharma(damo)

You should also examine Meat, Wine, and Fighting Monks: Did Shaolin Monks breach Buddhist Dietary Regulations? by Dr. Meir Shahar

I guess what I'm asking is what did Chinese Martial Arts look like before Ta Mo? And, if they were practiced differently, what were those practices?

[David Jamieson]

I guess what I'm asking is what did Chinese Martial Arts look like before Ta Mo? And, if they were practiced differently, what were those practices?

Chinese martial arts were around before Ta Mo without question, but for the most part, what they looked like or if they were documented in any formal way at all ...well, your guess is as good as mine.

It is known that during the Tang dynasty, approximately 600CE to 900CE, that martial arts were practiced at Shaolin. It's unknown as to what exactly those arts were.

Military arts of the same period deal mainly with the standard warfare such as mounted, dismounted, short, long, ranged weapons siege works and so on.

According to Meir Shahars' book regarding the monastery and it's martial arts, there was a staff manual from the temple dated in the first quarter of the 16th century and touted as an excellent treatise on the use of the staff as a weapon.

I believe it is this manual from which a lot of praise was heaped upon the Shaolin fighting abilities due to the manual being used by generals to train their own forces in the use of quarter staffs on the battle field and the finding that the shaolin techniques were more than effective. Namely double headed techniques.

[bawang]

I guess what I'm asking is what did Chinese Martial Arts look like before Ta Mo? And, if they were practiced differently, what were those practices?

evolution of kung fu has nothing to do with damo
no one is sure exactly what damo introduced other than chan buddhism
but the physical conditioning exciercises of shaolin includes excercises from indian yoga, both soft "prana" or qi excercises and hard physical excercises

before song dynasty chinese army did jiaoli (headbutt) . two soldier in armor circle each other, then headbutt each other with their pointy helmets
if none of them is knocked out they end up in a wrestling clinch and wrestle

in song dynasty it turned into xiang pu (meaning literally clinch). two people circle each other, jump toward each other into a clinch and wrestle. headbutt was removed.

in late song dynasty population of china balloon + military career turn from elite mercenary wariror class into the lowest class on bottom of society, conscription becomes popular. punching kicking and form drilling makes below average cannon fodder soldiers, but because can train in mass numbers became more efficient and cost effective plus formation fighting needs very little skills
what is known is that the short spears used by shaolin and many other martial art schools are in fact flower spears and cannot be used for actual combat

taken from chinese magazine Martial Soul "wu huen*

[LFJ]

...the story that Ta Mo was denied entrance and subsequently sat in a cave for 9 years until he was admitted is one of the most common legends about him.

There's a cave in fact not far from the monastery that is said to be the cave where ta mo sat and meditated.

i'm familiar with his stories and teachings, but i have never heard of him being denied entrance until 9 years later.

so i ask again, who tells that story?

[David Jamieson]

i'm familiar with his stories and teachings, but i have never heard of him being denied entrance until 9 years later.

so i ask again, who tells that story?

You really want to know!

Seriously though, it is told in a few places. If you went to shaolin and visited the cave, they would tell you there as well. Also, I believe i saw it one the discovery channel, so whoever wrote that show tells it that way as well.

You seem kind of angry about it?

[ghostexorcist]

can you clairfy i dont understand

Its a poem about the "Flowery Monk" from the Water Margin

I guess what I'm asking is what did Chinese Martial Arts look like before Ta Mo? And, if they were practiced differently, what were those practices?

Bodhidharma had absolutely nothing to do with Chinese martial arts. The Sinew-Changing Classic was erroneously attributed to him in 1624 when it was actually written by a Taoist. However, the idea of him teaching actual martial arts did not come about until 1907 with the publishing of the popular political novel The Travels of Lao T’san.

[LFJ]

You really want to know!

Seriously though, it is told in a few places. If you went to shaolin and visited the cave, they would tell you there as well. Also, I believe i saw it one the discovery channel, so whoever wrote that show tells it that way as well.

You seem kind of angry about it?

no, it just sounds bizarre.

it kind of defeats the purpose of his 9 year sit. it wouldnt have had the same profound effect. it also wouldnt make sense for them to prepare a special room for him and be so hospitable later on. he was a famous master, welcomed over by the emperor even. so i dont see how it would make sense that monks of any temple would deny him entrance. any reason given?

i had just never heard the story being told that way. not by any monk of shaolin nor any master of a chan/zen/seon buddhist tradition.

i've heard discovery and other documentary shows make some pretty oddball statements before, mixing up facts and details, so.

[David Jamieson]

no, it just sounds bizarre.

it kind of defeats the purpose of his 9 year sit. it wouldnt have had the same profound effect. it also wouldnt make sense for them to prepare a special room for him and be so hospitable later on. he was a famous master, welcomed over by the emperor even. so i dont see how it would make sense that monks of any temple would deny him entrance. any reason given?

i had just never heard the story being told that way. not by any monk of shaolin nor any master of a chan/zen/seon buddhist tradition.

i've heard discovery and other documentary shows make some pretty oddball statements before, mixing up facts and details, so.

That's cool. I don't think it is counter productive to have that story. I think the story also goes that the emperor who invited him over didn't care much for him either because he basically gave him the old camel through the eye of the needle parable.

I think if anything, the story of the rejection, then the sitting, then the eventual acceptance speaks directly about perseverance, diligence and commitment to the way.

[SimonM]

David makes a good point about the symbolism of the rejection story (one of several variants I have heard).

I'd like to add that the later honoring of Bodidharma would fit the structure as the monks came to realize that greatness was sitting outside their door eating bitter while they acted inhospitably to a member of the sangha.

LFJ also makes a strong point: Discovery Channel doesn't vet their "discoveries" very well. They put a lot of nonsense up there... like an hour long program about how space aliens from atlantis built the sphynx.

[LFJ]

really, i see absolutely no reason why the shaolinsi sangha at that time would deny bodhidharma entrance. after all, they already had an indian monk as their abbot and another famous one was coming from buddhism's motherland. of course they would want to hear what he has to say- little did they know.

the way i learned it was that he was hitting the misunderstanding the people studying buddhism in china already had.

at that time buddhist practice was more concerned with ritual and magic, or as the emperor understood "attaining merit", finding something "holy". they all studied nikaya buddhism, focusing on accumulation of knowledge through scripture.

so they all wanted to hear what the famous master from the west had to say about truth. what was his great teaching? thats what even the emperor wanted to know when he welcomed him over.

bodhidharma hit that misunderstanding, first in his exchange with the emperor. (saying only four phrases in reply to each of the emperor's questions: no merit, nothing holy, vast emptiness, dont know- bunch of negation of generally accepted buddhist concepts in china at that time. radical hitting!)

then at shaolin monastery, the monks would surely be eager to welcome another great indian monk. they likely expected more of what buddhabhadra was already teaching them. and they thought more accumulation of knowledge was the key.

again he hit that misunderstanding. without speaking a word he just went to the cave and sat... and sat.. longer than any of the monastics at that time could manage, or imagine.

thus the beginning of chan transmission in china, and the shaolinsi sangha's "conversion" to the mahayana.