Bodhidharma's Influence and what Shaolin means to TCMA

[Vajramusti]

1. The Bodhidharma was real person. His major role was in the introduction of dhyana(zan. chan, zen) which pointed to disciplined observation and experience of reality-rather than ritual, sutras and dependence on literature. he was not at the Shaolin temple but in a place near it.

2. Jeffrey Broughton's The Bodhidharma anthology and Red Pine's translation of The Outline of Practice sermon(labelled Two Entrances in Broughton's work)give clear indications of Chan and its roots in the Mahayana tradition also followed in Nagarjuna's work.

3. Most cultures including Chinese have had some forms of martial training.Bodhidharma's likely contribution is not into a specific shaolin style . ..but the integration of posture, breath and meditation is more likely to have informed some martial arts in China and Japan... later in parts of SE Asia.

4. memories can fade specially with the rise of nationalist ideologies but there were quite a few Indian monks
who went to China. Some for teaching, translating sutras and also for sharing and studying eclipses and ancient astronomy- see Needham's classic opus -Science and Civilization in China.Later there were Chinese and Korean monks that travelled to India and some took sutras back with them. Some Indian sutras were lost but rediscovered in Chinese translations.

5. Kalraipayyatu though well preserved is not the only martial art.In ancient Indian Buddhist centers of learning (Nalanda etc)martial training including archery was part of the curriculum as preparations for meditations.Kalaripayyatu and other Indian arts incorporated aspects of yoga into their practice. Indian martial traditions and the Chinese both have used animal names for different postures-tiger etc.at one time or another. English colonialism "contributed"(ugh) to the decline of the martial arts in India. China- while alsoa victim of colonialism-had to deal more with the economic aspects of western colonialism- whereas in India there was the take over of army and police functions by the Brits...including regulation of martial arts activities that might lead to anti state behavior.The attcks on the "thugees" are examples.

6 Buddhism declined with Hindu revivals and later with Moslem conquests- but did'nt disappear--
The Chittagong area in Bangla desh still has some Buddhists with a continuing practice..Sri Lanka as part of South Asia remained a major source of Buddhism, Tibetan buddhism was stimulated by monks from Bengal and the Ladkh area of kashmir had/has Buddhists.BTW because of Ambedkar and aspects of the Dakit movement there is ome revival of Buddhism.
And, places like the Mhabodhi society in Kolkata have always worked on Buddhist studies.

joy chaudhuri (PS. Please excuse typos)

[sha0lin1]

maybe so, but it cannot be connected to shaolin practice in the here and now or even in the then and there. Indian culture tends to want to predate everything in some tellings. But, seeing as the Harapa empire was likely the worlds first, I won't begrudge them that.


martial arts develop independently all over the world depending on teh requirement for them. same as most other cultural practices such as religion, written language, engineering and so on.

from one continental region to another, parallel development of human cultures is quite common.

chinese martial arts are distinctive and definitely chinese. while there is some similarity to kalari from shaolin, there are huge differences as well. It just takes time to look.

I don't think that even shaolin practice in the here and now can be connected to the then and there. I am saying that Shaolin possibly had its roots in Kalari and was probably changed and adapted to fit the chinese culture. Of course there are differences between the two arts and they can't be compared today just like I don't think that Shaolin is the same today as it was in the1300's or 1700's for that matter. I think it highly likely that Bodhidarhma was likey versed in Kalari (or some other Indian art) and taught those exercises. Over the centuries they were changed and adapted by the Shaolin to suit their needs and cultural practices. After all some of the postures we use in our forms are very yogic like, i.e. Tong Zi Bai Fo, Zoupan. In the end, no one will ever really know definitively, due to the lack of written materials and destruction of records through the ages. All historians can do is give their best educated guess based on various documents written in various historical periods to try to put the pieces of the puzzle together. It is the same for Christianity as well. Did Christ exist? As a man yes, but did he poses the powers attributed to him by the writers of the gospels? Who really knows? After all, the gospels were written years after his death and they were written by men, and even they give very different accounts of Christ.

[David Jamieson]

I think too many of us operate on discovery channel educations. lol

It wasn't until about 10 years ago that I started looking at actual documentation as opposed to a complete diet of what others say.

It's quite interesting and fulfilling because often, one persons interpretation is not necessarily the original intent of the writer! In fact, the original intent, unless quite specific is always open to interpretation.

Shaolin has been around for a long time, even the neo shaolin is almost 30 years old.

On another note, has anyone considered that the dark ones in teh murals may very well be asuras and not humans at all?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Many people believe that the "secret" in finding the "missing pieces' of their selected system is in its roots and the further back they go the "better".
I can sympathize.
I don't agree, but I can see how some can feel that way.

[David Jamieson]

Many people believe that the "secret" in finding the "missing pieces' of their selected system is in its roots and the further back they go the "better".
I can sympathize.
I don't agree, but I can see how some can feel that way.

If I can't find what I want to eat readily, then I will have to choose something else to fill my gut and sustain me until I can find what I specifically want.

metaphorically speaking...in regards to knowledge of Shaolin, Ch'an, Bodidharma, the lineage, etc etc etc.

the oral tradition has been spoiled these days. there is a lot of completely nonsense information floating around out there and for newbs, they are just sucking it up no matter where it comes from and with each regurgitation of the wrong, we get more to the flock of the wrong.

It's too bad, but when we are talking about the various paths of shaolin, in many cases it is important to try to rectify the incorrect and seek the for true.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If I can't find what I want to eat readily, then I will have to choose something else to fill my gut and sustain me until I can find what I specifically want.

metaphorically speaking...in regards to knowledge of Shaolin, Ch'an, Bodidharma, the lineage, etc etc etc.

the oral tradition has been spoiled these days. there is a lot of completely nonsense information floating around out there and for newbs, they are just sucking it up no matter where it comes from and with each regurgitation of the wrong, we get more to the flock of the wrong.

It's too bad, but when we are talking about the various paths of shaolin, in many cases it is important to try to rectify the incorrect and seek the for true.

In the case of historical significance, sure, in terms of martial application, not needed.
Pressure testing should fill in any questions you may have.
There are many great works out there, works that are unbiased and not there to peddle any "linage" or with "questionable" motives.
People should focus on those and not on the BS that is typically fed.
But we know that, once something become "mantra" you need an exorcism to get rid of it !!

[richard sloan]

It is true. You are thinking about the Yi Jin Jing (1624), which attributes the qigong exercise to Bodhidharma. The first of two prefaces states after Damo's death, the monks of Shaolin discovered two qigong manuals written by the Buddhist saint. One manual was lost and the other was supposedly not translated into Chinese from Sanskrit until much later. However, the idea of him teaching specific martial arts did not come about until 1907 with the publication of the previously mentioned political novel.

but none of the monks think yi jin jing is from a book. it is claimed that it was a direct teaching, we even call it a sutra.

also in our tradition 2 of Bato's disciples were former generals/warriors who maintained their training and possibly transmitted their martial arts to other monks at shaolin.

[golden arhat]

i'm familiar with his stories and teachings, but i have never heard of him being denied entrance until 9 years later.

so i ask again, who tells that story?

really you've never heard that before? thats like the pretty standard legend regarding da mo

[LFJ]

really you've never heard that before? thats like the pretty standard legend regarding da mo

really. standard to whom? by what criteria?

i guess it doesnt really matter, but i havent heard it that way (that he was denied) from any monk in shaolinsi, nor from any qualified zen master, modern or historical.

people referenced a book and a documentary. we know how reliable those can be. but it would really be one out of a million, for me, and not being straight from the mouth of a qualified buddhist monk or teacher, being one in a million, i wouldnt rely on it.

bodhidharma's real value is in his teaching anyway. not how he was treated by unawakened folks, but how he reacted to them.

[r.(shaolin)]

As Gene points out in this thread has been well discussed. I sat down and re-read these. Actually quite interesting.

Check our archives: Bodhidharma(damo)
You should also examine Meat, Wine, and Fighting Monks: Did Shaolin Monks breach Buddhist Dietary Regulations? by Dr. Meir Shahar

...................
Allow me to rehash a couple more points.

Shaolin Encyclopedia (Shaolinsi wushu baike quanshu):
"Not only did Bodhidharma not transmit any boxing techniques to any monks; moreover, there is no relation between Bodhidharma and the monks practicing boxing."

In his article written in 1999, Academia Encounters the Chinese Martial Arts, Stanley Henning makes this statement:

"The earliest extant written reference to Bodhidharma and boxing appears in Liu E’s popular novel, Travels of Lao Ts’an (ca. 1907), followed by a highly controversial manual, portions of which were variously published (author unknown) beginning around 1911 (in the midst of unrest and revolution) as Illustrated Explanation of Shaolin Boxing Methods and Secrets of Shaolin Boxing."

While it maybe true from one point of view that it may be the earliest written reference to Bodhidharma, it is incorrect to assume that Bodhidharma was not previously believed to be connected with marital arts at Shaolin. I am convinced that by at least the 18th century martial artist including monks at Shaolin thought otherwise. Myths have played a crucial role in the forming of individual and communal identities. Clearly there is evidence that this was the case with the monks of Shaolin. The point in discussing these myths is to illuminate, not eliminate, these legends by seeing how they have passed into and shaped Shaolin.
Liu E did not invent the Bodhidharma connection – and there is evidence support that by at least the late 18th century the Shaolin monks themselves considered Bodhidharma as the "root" (本) of both its Buddhism and martial arts. The Shaolin frescos should not be viewed as some somesort of 'snap shot' of a specific training-day' at Shaolin, but rather I would suggest that they should be viewed as idealizations of 'history'. Some of the beliefs' the murals suggests are:
- Bodhidharma was the "root" (本) of both Shaolin Buddhism and martial arts.
- Indian monks, retired generals, exchanged martial arts with Shaolin monks.
- Shaolin included a full range of weaponry, coming from earlier periods.
Shahar's makes a case for (Vajrapani) as the patron of Shaolin staff arts (and a venerated martial deity) but not the root of all their martial arts. I believe that by at least the 18 century, Bodhidharma was considered to be root of Shaolin martial arts.
r.

[LFJ]

anything you do correctly, not inversely, is chan.

therefore, bodhidharma is the root of shaolin martial arts as "wugong chan".

doesnt mean he is the founder or creator of the arts.

bodhidharma is the root of reality, the mind-ground, bodhi, dharma.

[r.(shaolin)]

anything you do correctly, not inversely, is chan.

therefore, bodhidharma is the root of shaolin martial arts as "wugong chan".

doesnt mean he is the founder or creator of the arts.

bodhidharma is the root of reality, the mind-ground, bodhi, dharma.

Agreed . . . mostly.

Here are some observations on the Baiyi Hall "Methods of Martial Arts" fresco's.
First the one that shows barehand combat:
It is my opinion that the large non-Chinese dark skinned monk in the very center of the composition is meant to represent Bodhidharma. The composition is intentionally symmetrical and I believe that the placement of this figure is intentional. Further more, by the 18th century it was a convention that Bodhidharma be shown with a beard. Note that there is only one figure with a beard in each of these frescos.

In the second fresco "methods of martial arts" in Baiyi Hall (the one with weapon combat), we see Bodhidharma enshrined at the center in the lower base pavilion. The placement symbolizes Ben (本) and also Men (門). We know that this figure is Bodhidharma because above him are the characters" "Ben Di Yuan Zu - 本 諦 源祖) which means - The root of truth's origin is Bodhidharma" (not the literal translation). You could also translate this as: Bodhidharma is the method's origin. On the pavilion's right it is written 法力無邊 (Fa Li Wu Bian) which means: The power of the 'way' has no boundary. On the pavilion's left it is written: 佛恩廣大 (Fo En Guang Da), which means Buddha's benevolence is vast. Note that out of the left door of this pavilion the only bearded monk (which I believe to also represents Bodhidharma) is emerging holding a mace. The mace is a weapon for crushing and essentially symbolized the smashing of the ignorance and emotional defilements created by karma 因果. His placement on the side of the center gate, symbolizes the 'defense of the gate'.

Showing Bodhidharma so centrally in these two fresco on "methods of martial arts" demonstrates that he was viewed as important to Shaolin martial arts at the time.

cheers,
r.

[r.(shaolin)]

4. memories can fade specially with the rise of nationalist ideologies but there were quite a few Indian monks who went to China.

Really. Can you post some references, dates and names. I know a few Buddhist scholars that would be interested in this info.
r.

[Vajramusti]

Really. Can you post some references, dates and names. I know a few Buddhist scholars that would be interested in this info.
r.

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Needham's multi volume classic scholarly work "Science and Civilization in China"contains references to Buddhist monks and astronomers in India. Check the indices. Good wishes,

joy chaudhuri

[r.(shaolin)]

During the Ming and Qing period there were a few remaining Buddhist communities in parts of India. However, the kind of movement of monks between India and China discussed by Needham and being suggested in these Qing dynasty frescos, happened much, much earlier. In the 11th century Buddhism was already in decline in Indian and at the end of the 12th century the Moslems conquered Magadha, the heartland of Buddhism in India, and wiped out Buddhism there. By then movement of monks between China and India largely stopped. Certainly, by the Ming and Qing period here are no records of any important monks coming from India to China. My point is that the fresco's are not a depiction of who was at Shaolin at the time they were done.
r.