why do wing chun practitioners think wing chun is the end all be all!!!

[Yoshiyahu]

You have just started world war five....I am from America. I bet you we got europeans online fighting and firing back too. Sad to say we got people on both sides fighting each other too...lol ha ha...No style is the end all to be all...Not even MMA or crosstraining. You can only retain so much. So even if you practiced BJJ you are still limited. You do not have all the answers against MT guy or against boxer. If you study BJJ boxing and MUay Thai you are a little more rounded...but not totally knowledgeable of whats out there. For one you can never be completely ready for every type of fighter. Because all three of those styles might not prepare you for a judo fighter or ninjitsu fighter or a tai chi fighter. You may not be able to withstand a skilled karate fighter. There is no way to know for sure....


If you study WC and want to proficent at it...you must first practice diligently. An as Terrence Niehoff says you must fight with your WC. Practice to me includes:forms,drills,chi sau,punches,kicks,breaking down each block and drilling it over and over again,practicing your steps, power training,stamina and endurance training and flexibilty and agility.

These are all key factors make you a well rounded fighter. There are things that can give your WC another dimension and there are things that can actually evelavate your WC. Both are good. Is something wrong with MMA...No its really good. These guys fight all the time...atleast some do. They get exposure to little bit from each art and get in shape.

I personally have nothing against ground fighting. I just don't like it. Don't like the techs and how it looks and feels. Its me and my opinion no need to ridicule me.

Personally I feel most fights don't go to ground. Unless you got some stupid guy who realize he can not out duke you with his fist and decides since his face is getting pounded anyway he has to drop you to stop from getting knocked out...Personally as for cross training, I actually do cross train...But I have been studing WC for some years. I personally more comfortable with WC. I think personally if not WC i would choose Karate or Muay Thai for their power and aggressiveness. These arts will keep you alive. Of course I am fond of the five animals and various kungs.

But what flames me is when some people say with out ground fighting your WC is usesless. Sure everything has limitations. But once you realize your limitations you learn how fight with them. Also if you have a limitation other senses become stronger. We have to stop focusing on the limitations and start focusing on the strenghts of a given art. Only then can we compensate.


But I am curious outside of ground fighting what are the limitations of WC?

ok im hoping to not start a flame war or anything here, if that happens i will erase this thread. ok for the past five years i've studied xing yi chuan, and i freaking love it, its one of the most effective forms of fighting i've trained in. it has its drawbacks which alot of my previous training has compensated for but its a good system for me and it works for me. ok now that thats out of the way.

i recently been training in wing chun just to see what is it all about, why so many people swear by it like it was jesus christ or something. and you know what i just dont see it. while it is a practical and effective art. it has tons of weakness's. and im not talking about ground fighting or any of that. cause in reality the floor is not someplace you want to be at in new york city. anyway without getting to specific, i just dont see it. yes its a good art but no it is not the grand ultimate martial art. now there are guys on here who are gonna come at me with all sorts of crap, like oh you havent learned enough yet yadda yadda yadda yackity shmackity, just know also i have two friends who are really good sifus in wing chun. and lets just say what i said before, while i see its efectiveness especially in close range combat, there are alot of places where it needs to be compensated where things need to be added to make it more of an effective fighting form. just my opinion.

Your post is one of the best so far...great post on this thread...you have enlighten a lot of people who do not realize it yet!!!

Wow, got a lot of flak for putting up a clip of a movie that I would have thought kung fu practitioners would have appreciated... in my opinion Ip Man is the best kung fu movie to come out in terms of the choreography since Jet Li's Fist of Legend. I was just trying to help it get a little exposure out in the West.

I completely understand that movies can make any art look good... as I mentioned, I'm no wing chun lover, but every art has its strengths and weaknesses. As a martial arts practitioner and enthusiast, I appreciate the differences and nuances of all martial arts, be it choy lay fut, bak sil lum, wing chun, or MMA.

With my limited ring and contact experience, I've come to the same conclusion many of you have come to - that it's not as much the style as it is the practitioner. I put in 4-5 hours a week of martial arts training (including timing drills, light sparring, body contitioning, and, yes, form practice) and another 4 hours a week strength and conditioning training, which might not seem like a lot, but it is a challenge to coordinate my engineering job, 7-9 credit hours of MBA courses, and any semblance of a life on top of that. With that level of training sustained over the last 10 years, I've been able to decimate kickboxers, grapplers, and kung fu practitioners, but have also had my butt kicked. The common denominator was literally how much better or worse shape I was in and how much more or less fighting experience I had than the other guy. That's the real end all be all.

I have been enlighten by your responses!!! Excellent....

I don't think you were but I hope that you have been "enlightened" by me response.

Ha Ha funny

Tapped out.... who cares about tapped out? Unless you are into sport fighting

I got knees,elbows,teeth and head to butt with...what makes you think I would let you breat my arm?

we don't care if you don't tap, we'll just break your arm or choke you unconscious, if that doesn't bother you

[sanjuro_ronin]

I got knees,elbows,teeth and head to butt with...what makes you think I would let you breat my arm?

Good luck with that.

[Wayfaring]

Because all three of those styles might not prepare you for a judo fighter or ninjitsu fighter or a tai chi fighter. You may not be able to withstand a skilled karate fighter. There is no way to know for sure....

Sure there is. You actually go out and spar with these different types of fighters to obtain an idea of what to expect.

If you study WC and want to proficent at it...you must first practice diligently. An as Terrence Niehoff says you must fight with your WC. Practice to me includes:forms,drills,chi sau,punches,kicks,breaking down each block and drilling it over and over again,practicing your steps, power training,stamina and endurance training and flexibilty and agility.

You mean you actually have to train in martial arts to be able to fight with them? Geez, and here all along I thought you just had to post on the Internet.

These are all key factors make you a well rounded fighter. There are things that can give your WC another dimension and there are things that can actually evelavate your WC. Both are good. Is something wrong with MMA...No its really good. These guys fight all the time...atleast some do. They get exposure to little bit from each art and get in shape.

Actually the conditioning and the continual sparring / fighting in a live environment is one of the best things about the MMA style of training. Being an out of shape MA practitioner that doesn't spar or fight and yet thinking your science will protect you is delusional.

I personally have nothing against ground fighting. I just don't like it. Don't like the techs and how it looks and feels. Its me and my opinion no need to ridicule me.

Oh, I wouldn't go that far. You seem to present plenty of reasons to ridicule you.

Personally I feel most fights don't go to ground. Unless you got some stupid guy who realize he can not out duke you with his fist and decides since his face is getting pounded anyway he has to drop you to stop from getting knocked out...Personally as for cross training, I actually do cross train...But I have been studing WC for some years. I personally more comfortable with WC. I think personally if not WC i would choose Karate or Muay Thai for their power and aggressiveness. These arts will keep you alive. Of course I am fond of the five animals and various kungs.

So outside of the fat kid in high school who said "dude get off me", how many personal fights have you had that did or did not go to the ground? Any objective
evidence? Because how you feel usually doesn't dictate how a fight goes.

But what flames me is when some people say with out ground fighting your WC is usesless. Sure everything has limitations. But once you realize your limitations you learn how fight with them. Also if you have a limitation other senses become stronger. We have to stop focusing on the limitations and start focusing on the strenghts of a given art. Only then can we compensate.

Why does this flame you? Modern evidence suggests that the strengths of an art have less to do with winning or losing than limiting the weaknesses. This is because reasonably skilled fighters have the ability to take a fight to an area where their opponent is weak to take advantage.

I got knees,elbows,teeth and head to butt with...what makes you think I would let you breat my arm?

This is pretty clear evidence you have zero experience with arm bars. If you are being arm barred you do not have elbows - one is trapped and the other has no leverage to strike with. You don't have knees as you are not in a position to be able to strike with any force with them. You have no target to head butt. You probably could bite the top leg, but the effect of that would probably be to p!ss someone off enough to really crank the arm bar, severely dislocating your elbow. There are effective escapes from this position, none of which has anything to do with what you stated.

[SimonM]

Then that must be it, if Simon doesn't know about it then it doesn't exist....lol.

No.

I don't know about it.

So I say "show me".

Talk is cheap.

This is pretty clear evidence you have zero experience with arm bars. If you are being arm barred you do not have elbows - one is trapped and the other has no leverage to strike with. You don't have knees as you are not in a position to be able to strike with any force with them. You have no target to head butt. You probably could bite the top leg, but the effect of that would probably be to p!ss someone off enough to really crank the arm bar, severely dislocating your elbow. There are effective escapes from this position, none of which has anything to do with what you stated.

I think if I were applying an arm bar and somebody bit me I'd crank the arm... and then I'd transition to mount and punch the living hell out of the biter.

The other information is all correct. I had trouble escaping from arm bars for a long time. Then I learned how to do it... and now I don't have trouble. But none of the techniques described above fit the bill.

[lkfmdc]

I personally have nothing against ground fighting. I just don't like it.

"you may not be interested in war, but war might be interested in you"

I got knees,elbows,teeth and head to butt with...what makes you think I would let you breat my arm?

Go to a BJJ school, challenge them, report back to us what happens with that theory of yours

[SimonM]

To be fair, if he only intends to fight for sport he can disregard a range in which he has no intention of fighting.

Just a reflection on knees on the ground.

I remember one time I was free wrestling with a friend and I got into cross body. As I like doing from cross body I started applying a Kimura and my friend decided to knee me.

He struck me about ten times in the ribs with a knee while I patiently applied the lock.

In the end he tapped.

The reason why: no ability to generate power for the knees.

Kneeing while being armbarred would be much harder.

[dnovice]

"you may not be interested in war, but war might be interested in you"



Go to a BJJ school, challenge them, report back to us what happens with that theory of yours

All hail the Supreme martial arts, BJJ... bow before them.

[SimonM]

BJJ isn't the end-all for fighting.

But BJJ, or at least Judo are the end-all for ground submission wrestling. So if you want to be prepared to defend against being choked or locked up while on the ground knowing one of those two arts is a very good idea.

[lkfmdc]

All hail the Supreme martial arts, BJJ... bow before them.

what should we hail? Blind ignorance and fairy tale conceptions? If you think you are going to head butt or bite your way out of a submission you are deluding yourself. Perhaps instead of being insecure and in denial you could, gasp, CROSS TRAIN and make yourself better?

No, better go back to your chi ball blasts and hope for the best

[sanjuro_ronin]

All hail the Supreme martial arts, BJJ... bow before them.

Hardly supreme but very effective.

BJJ isn't the end-all for fighting.

But BJJ, or at least Judo are the end-all for ground submission wrestling. So if you want to be prepared to defend against being choked or locked up while on the ground knowing one of those two arts is a very good idea.

Quite correct, to disregard that is, well, not very "martial" at all.

what should we hail? Blind ignorance and fairy tale conceptions? If you think you are going to head butt or bite your way out of a submission you are deluding yourself. Perhaps instead of being insecure and in denial you could, gasp, CROSS TRAIN and make yourself better?

I'll give BJJ guys this much, you an pretty much go to any and you will find more than one guy willing and able to take you on, for you education, with as little rules as you like, even no rules.

[SimonM]

I'll give BJJ guys this much, you an pretty much go to any and you will find more than one guy willing and able to take you on, for you education, with as little rules as you like, even no rules.

I'm not EXACTLY a BJJ guy... in that it's not my main art (I'd probably still list Hung Gar for that)... but I'm close enough (in that I really like submission wrestling) that a lot of the guys who hate on wrestlers wouldn't be likely to spot the difference and I'll say this:

The fewer rules there are the happier I am.

Want to add head butts in? I'm game.
Knees and elbows? Fire away.

There are only two techniques I would disallow in a sparring session:

1) Eye pokes.
2) Biting.

Honestly I think the Greeks had fighting arts right with Pankration. Too bad the benighted Christian rulers of the Byzantine Roman Empire dropped the sport.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm not EXACTLY a BJJ guy... in that it's not my main art (I'd probably still list Hung Gar for that)... but I'm close enough (in that I really like submission wrestling) that a lot of the guys who hate on wrestlers wouldn't be likely to spot the difference and I'll say this:

The fewer rules there are the happier I am.

Want to add head butts in? I'm game.
Knees and elbows? Fire away.

There are only two techniques I would disallow in a sparring session:

1) Eye pokes.
2) Biting.

Honestly I think the Greeks had fighting arts right with Pankration. Too bad the benighted Christian rulers of the Byzantine Roman Empire dropped the sport.

Ah dude, I've done the Vale Tudo with eye pokes and biting.
They are just as good or bad as any other technique.

[dnovice]

what should we hail? Blind ignorance and fairy tale conceptions? If you think you are going to head butt or bite your way out of a submission you are deluding yourself. Perhaps instead of being insecure and in denial you could, gasp, CROSS TRAIN and make yourself better?

No, better go back to your chi ball blasts and hope for the best

Haha. I'm not saying any MA is the best, just pointing out that its ridiculous to keep saying "GO TO A BJJ SCHOOL AND U'LL SEE." come on man.

[

BJJ isn't the end-all for fighting.

But BJJ, or at least Judo are the end-all for ground submission wrestling.

OK. no one said otherwise. What about stand up? I hope you see how ridiculous this argument is. When i stated the above i was being sarcastic hoping you will see the my art is better than yours is silly.

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;923239]Hardly supreme but very effective.
QUOTE]

Ok. wing chun is effective too although it has its weaknesses, just like BJJ. So you've made no point here.

I'm not EXACTLY a BJJ guy... in that it's not my main art (I'd probably still list Hung Gar for that)... but I'm close enough (in that I really like submission wrestling) that a lot of the guys who hate on wrestlers wouldn't be likely to spot the difference and I'll say this:

The fewer rules there are the happier I am.

Want to add head butts in? I'm game.
Knees and elbows? Fire away.

There are only two techniques I would disallow in a sparring session:

1) Eye pokes.
2) Biting.

Honestly I think the Greeks had fighting arts right with Pankration. Too bad the benighted Christian rulers of the Byzantine Roman Empire dropped the sport.

Ok good for you man. ??

Now to all, being a martial artist you should know that its not the style but the practioner that fights and wins or loses. If you at this point in your ma can't see this then...

[doug maverick]

me personally, im a giant fan of cross training, i think it makes for a well rounded effective martial artist. i started training martial arts at four, first learning aikido from my mom which was boring to me as a kid so i started training tkd like most little kids, and then shotokan, BJJ(before it was the end all be all ) a few other style, until i started training in the chinese arts at 12, first lung ying kuen, then hun ga & fu jow pai, bagua zhang and finally xing yi and wing chun. and through out all my training i've retained alot of knowledge from each. now me personally im not a fan of ground fighting, just again not the kind of place you want to be in new york city if you come up against some stupid ass street thugs which is a likelyhood no matter where you live in the city, ******* are as much an infestation as the rats and pigeons. doesnt mean i havent trained my ass off in grappling(**** i was even on the wrestling team in high school) just so i know how to get out of a ground situation and back on my feet as fast as i possibly can and its proved effective. i once asked my sifu why there werent to much ground fighting in kung fu. his answer made sense to me and may make sense to some of you. most martial arts like xing yi were designed for war, if some how a warrior lost his weapon and had to result to hand to hand combat, he had to take his opponent out asap and move on to the next opponent, if he fell to the floor he risked being trampled to death by horses speared by another opponent or any number of mishaps, so most fighters tried to stay on there feet, while there are ground strikes and take down(as evident in xing yi's dragon hand movement as well as others) there wasnt much time for grappling aside from your occasional throw or break. and he also told me the stomping done in alot of forms like xing yi and chen tai chi, was not for generating the energy like alot of teachers say but in fact to stomp your enemies head in as you move on to the next opponent. im not saying my teacher was right or wrong, just saying that this makes sense for me.

[SimonM]

Ah dude, I've done the Vale Tudo with eye pokes and biting.
They are just as good or bad as any other technique.

Biting spreads disease.
Eye poking is just plain childish (as is biting).