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Thread: Kung Fu and MMA

  1. #1

    Kung Fu and MMA

    Me and a friend started doing kung fu about 7-8 months ago. We've both progressed relatively slowly compared to how we'd like to progress, which is a combination of sporadic laziness and kung fu being something it takes a lifetime to master.

    We study White Crane kung fu. It's a rare variety of white crane, and I'm the 3rd generation of it in America. Sigung came over in the 80s and started teaching my Sifus, who are now teaching me. I believe its a very effective and powerful style of kung fu. I have learned 3 basic forms with application, as well as a multitude of internal qigong excersizes with a lot of physical conditioning and standing. They really drill the information into you before moving on to something new. As my Sifus say, the 3 forms I've learned are not actually the White Crane system yet, just something Sigung put together to help bring those who have never done kung fu into the system, as it was meant for existing kung fu practitioners. So pretty much I haven't even scratched the surface of the system.

    The one thing I'm unhappy about is the lack of sparring. So far, we have done no sparring. We've done two man sets and pad drills, but not actual sparring. My sifus say that we will get to that and that we have to build up to it, but the curriculum is based on forms. I understand that kung fu is something that is learned slowly and is more about an overall quality of life than just knowing how to fight, but at the same time I really want to do some sparring! I feel like I know enough as it is to do atleast beginner level sparring.

    My friend who I had been doing kung fu with for about 5 months also started doing capoeira. He now thinks mixing and matching styles is the way to go. He's downloaded many, many ebooks and movies on various types of martial arts. He isn't going to a MMA school or anything, but his outlook is that of MMA: mix and match styles to build what you want.

    Enter the dilemma. I was always a traditionalist. I just wanted to do kung fu and get to the master level. However, now that I'm seeing his progress and reading more and more about other styles, it seems like they all have their merits. I've considered muay thai, jiujitsu, aikido, another style of kung fu, karate, and even going to an MMA gym to see what they're all about. Plus picking up another style would also provide me with an earlier outlet for sparring.

    I've talked with other martial artists abut this, and they say there's nothing wrong with studying more than one style, but to wait until you're a few years into your first one before branching out.

    My friend is of the opinion that you should learn them at the same time, so they grow together within you. The physical conditioning for one can definitely help the other, right?

    Both outlooks make sense to me. Focusing one on martial art vs doing multiple at the same time. I'm leaning towards sticking with white crane for now, then branching out to other styles of kung fu, then eventually trying something outside of kung fu. But I'm torn, I can see the benefit of doing something like muay thai right now alongside kung fu.

    I'm admittedly a noob with martial arts and I would really appreciate any input from you seasoned vets. Focus on kung fu or do kung fu along with something else?

  2. #2
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    Although forms are an important part of most kung fu systems, sparring is also extremely important. It can take a while to learn proper control in sparring, but I believe it should be introduced early in training. In the style I train, Bak Mei, sparring has always been considered a crucial part of all levels of training. Some schools just seem to really avoid sparring, which I think is a disservice to their students. I would express your concerns to your sifu.

    our school is www.dragonhousemma.com

    take care
    duncan

  3. #3
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    well, it's possible to learn math and english at the same time.
    as long as there aren't any glaring conflicts there's nothing wrong with cross training.

    I would say most people are down with it these days.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

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    Lacerto,

    I don't think the problem or answer is about what's right or wrong with kung fu or mixing styles. It sounds to me that you are dissatisfied simply in that you are interested in trying out sparring now, but your school doesn't include sparring early on in your training.

    My guess is that you've probably been leaving your white crane class a bit disgruntled about the whole thing. You don't want to work yourself into that type of situation. So maybe you should check out something else that includes early sparring and see if you like it better. And I say "maybe," because this is really a question of what's the right fit for you. I'm speculating above on how you feel - but just remember that there is no right or wrong or absolute answer to this question about one style or mixing or when is the right time to spar. I think this is really just about what you want for yourself.

  5. #5
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    Look, your shifu may be great, and a good fighter.

    Maybe he has trained fighters this way for a long time, I don't know.

    But if YOU are not happy, then its time to try something new. Maybe you will come back and keep doing white crane, only you can decide for that.

    But, I think you should maybe try some other arts? Doesn't matter, if it is Chinese, or MMA, or Japanese, boxing, whatever.

    Find something that you truly love doing. Its easier to work hard that way too.

    Maybe, on ur quest you will find an art you like more.
    It is bias to think that the art of war is just for killing people. It is not to kill people, it is to kill evil. It is a strategem to give life to many people by killing the evil of one person.
    - Yagyū Munenori

  6. #6
    Thank you all for your feedback! I truly appreciate it.

    I've brought the subject of sparring up with my Sifu multiple times and each time the answer is that 'its on the way'. I can definitely bring it up again and let him know I'm considering expanding my martial arts horizon.

    As far as my happiness goes, I really do enjoy the school. I've never felt healthier, this particular school places a lot of emphasis on maintaining health in the traditional Chinese sense. We do a solid 30-60 mins of qigong at the beginning of the class. The forms themselves are really fun to do and learning the application of them is a blast.

    Maybe I'm trying to justify the school to myself since its where I got started with martial arts. I have some meditating to do! I definitely welcome anymore feedback anyone has.

  7. #7
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    traditionally, Chinese teachers and some westerners dont teach sparring. sparring is a half way house, so in a traditional sense you are either fighting or playing!

    Saying that, I introduce sparring drills to students early on as martial arts training is different today. Most people will not stick it for years and they need feedback and plenty of enjoyment in training.

    If you believe 100% in your teacher/coach etc, do eactly as they say, they know how to get you to where you want to go! Just be careful not to get suckered by crap teachers.....

    Ask yourself why you are training? If sport interests you, sport sparring is essential early on.

    Paul
    www.moifa.co.uk

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    There are two ways to work this:

    Mixing systems and cross training in systems, they are not the same thing, though they may lead to the same place.

    Mixing is taking a bunch of systems, typically systems that are spcialized in certain ranges, and mixing them so that you cover "all your bases" and are well rounded.
    Cross training is chosing/devoting yourself to one system and then cross training/testing with other systems to see how your core system is effective VS them.
    You make the needed changes and modifications as you are exposed to other systems.
    In the end you become a well rounded MA able to use your core systme VS other systems in the most effective way possible.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  9. #9
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    Talking ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul T England View Post
    traditionally, Chinese teachers and some westerners dont teach sparring. sparring is a half way house, so in a traditional sense you are either fighting or playing!
    Great point! My sifu refers to sparring as playing. Real situations don't allow you to setup, feel someone out, and base a strategy upon what you see.

    I think pairing two people up to spar that don't have the basics down just encourages them to make it up as they go. Maybe that's why your sifu hasn't introduced it to you yet. I mean, if you don't have technique, you're just out there doing whatever it takes to keep from getting hit. They are trying to teach you a method of fighting, now how to create your own.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by SDJerry View Post
    Great point! My sifu refers to sparring as playing. Real situations don't allow you to setup, feel someone out, and base a strategy upon what you see.

    I think pairing two people up to spar that don't have the basics down just encourages them to make it up as they go. Maybe that's why your sifu hasn't introduced it to you yet. I mean, if you don't have technique, you're just out there doing whatever it takes to keep from getting hit. They are trying to teach you a method of fighting, now how to create your own.
    There are many types of sparring, if you feel that "typical" sparring is to predicatable, there are many ways around that and they still involve actual fighting as opposed to no fighting.
    The only people I know that ever refer to sparring as "playing" are those that never sparred full contact.
    It may be an experience worth your while.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  11. #11
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    sparring is fighting.

    It can be done at low, medium or high intensity with the latter being the most useful in understand wtf you are doing.

    low and med contact are for learning and shouldn't be a steady diet.

    sparring with someone who outclasses you immediately will be as much a waste of time as sparring with someone who is a walking clusterhump.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  12. #12
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    there are many possibilities, many options.
    You and your friend might get together and spar on your own.This might fulfill your hunger for the sparring, but you might also develop bad habits, which could impede your ability to use your Gung-Fu in the way it was designed. There is such a thing as an investment in the future. Some will agree, some will dissagree. You have to find your own path.

    That could be the reason why your Sifu is teaching you pad drills, and reaction drills first. He is developing your Gung-Fu body. Otherwise, you will have pretty forms and such, and fight like the folks in the Karate schools fight. Not that their fighting is so terrible, but if you want to learn how to actually fight using the techniques of your style, then there is a specific method to learning this.
    Again, this is your decision. Depends on what you want.



    Being that you only have a few months in, you can either trust your Sifu, or run to another school. After all, this is the modern age-you can go to burger king and have it your way.


    You can also train in a strictly groundfighting system, like bjj. This way you and your friend can roll with full intensity, and it will not conflict-physically with your Gung-Fu. It may conflict strategically, but at this stage of the game, it is like David said, Math and English. Later on, you can combine them so you can fight at all ranges-and look-no conflict. If it goes to the ground, you are ready. If it doesn't, fine.

    It really depends on what you want. Not your friend, and certainly not any of the "experts" on this forum. Search yourself. It is your life, your desires, your goals, and no one else's. You walk this path alone. Others may walk alongside you, but it is your life.

    Your Sifu may not be the teacher you desire,
    you may not be the student your Sifu desires.
    Last edited by TenTigers; 03-13-2009 at 07:52 AM.
    "My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
    Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"

    "I will not be part of the generation
    that killed Kung-Fu."

    ....step.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    There are many types of sparring, if you feel that "typical" sparring is to predicatable, there are many ways around that and they still involve actual fighting as opposed to no fighting.
    The only people I know that ever refer to sparring as "playing" are those that never sparred full contact.
    It may be an experience worth your while.
    I didn't say that sparring is predictable, I'm simply pointing out the fact that the tempo differs greatly between sparring and any real life altercation. Now if you are training for sport then the gap isn't as wide because you have more time and space. Like anything else, your training just needs to be in alignment with your goals.

    Oh and IMO, sparring full contact = fighting. I don't know how else you would define that hehehe

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by SDJerry View Post
    I didn't say that sparring is predictable, I'm simply pointing out the fact that the tempo differs greatly between sparring and any real life altercation. Now if you are training for sport then the gap isn't as wide because you have more time and space. Like anything else, your training just needs to be in alignment with your goals.

    Oh and IMO, sparring full contact = fighting. I don't know how else you would define that hehehe
    Agreed.
    Temp can be played with as for example:
    Not to long ago, my private MA training group ( now disbanded) took on a coupld of new guys, there were very "reality based" and kept saying that the sparring wasn't realistic enough, not enough liek the real thing, so a buddy of mine, a hapkido BB, decided that, from then on, we shoudl surprise attack them on a regualr basis or actually make them thing one od us was ****ed of and wanted to put the beats on them.
    This went on for a few meetings, at one point he beat on of them pretty bad, not hurt mind, just beat.
    They both left.
    Wonder why?
    The point was that, in all those altercations, they fought the exact same way that they would have if they were just sparring.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Agreed.
    Temp can be played with as for example:
    Not to long ago, my private MA training group ( now disbanded) took on a coupld of new guys, there were very "reality based" and kept saying that the sparring wasn't realistic enough, not enough liek the real thing, so a buddy of mine, a hapkido BB, decided that, from then on, we shoudl surprise attack them on a regualr basis or actually make them thing one od us was ****ed of and wanted to put the beats on them.
    This went on for a few meetings, at one point he beat on of them pretty bad, not hurt mind, just beat.
    They both left.
    Wonder why?
    The point was that, in all those altercations, they fought the exact same way that they would have if they were just sparring.
    lol.

    you could have just told them to get out.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

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