The role of traditional hierarchies in kung fu schools..what's the fuking point

[SavvySavage]

I'll tell you what the point is!

This is my understanding of the reason why there's a hierarchy in traditional kung fu schools. Let's look at the basic model from top to bottom:

Sifu, dai see hing, see hing, welp.

Ideally the sifu would only teach the dai see hing and the dai see hing teach the see hing. This system is put into place so that the older, more experienced, guide the younger at differing levels of development. Technically you are always younger and there is always an older unless the sifu's teacher is dead or too far away.

My sifu told me that if I needed to correct another instructor that I make sure not to do this in front of the younger students. He didn't explain why which is also the way of tradition. Sifu says. Know what I'm saying? Anyway. I was in a seminar once. There was a main teacher and two helpers. The main dude asked one of the helpers to demonstrate in front of the whole class and while she was doing this the main dude blurted out, "No, no. You're doing it all wrong. I guess I'm going to have to step in." I felt really bad for the chick and thought the main dude was a d!ck. The rest of the class, based on that incident, thought that the helper chick was a moron and wasn't worth listening to. These older brother traditions are put into place to teach people MANNERS because let's face it...America is short on such things. I've seen brand new students start spouting off their fighting philosophies or show what they would do in a situation though it had nothing to do with what was happening in the class. Older new students tend to be like this which is why educators in martial art schools and other schools don't like to teach grown ups. They are cranky, convinced they know the subject already or better, and don't like to be told what to do. You know what? Fuk older new students. Fuk you really hard! LOL. Seriously though, why are you older new students like this?

In my own school I've seen instructors get into open arguments about forms and even correct each other in front of new students. This needs to be remedied in traditional schools if students are going to take the instructors seriously. Here comes my, "I don't" rant. I don't believe that arrogance is the best way to go about this though. I don't believe that new students should be made to feel like they owe something to teachers or older students. I don't believe that a system of making students feel like they're a tadpole is helpful unless a cranky older student needs to be taught his place.

In the martial arts school there should be a general respect that is to be echoed in the real world. When you meet someone you smile, look into their eyes, and shake his or her hand. You shake with a firm grip and not that soft crap like girls shake. Or you say hi to the whole class in a respectful way if the class is really full. This is the kind of respect that should be cultivated in a martial arts school and in any relationship. What I've experienced(not necessarily in my own school) is that the olders expected a military like respect from the youngers. "I say, you do!" kind of mentality. I've seen instructors berate students for not practicing after a "touching hands" session when the reality could've been that the newer student was being respectful to his senior and not trying his hardest. In this kind of a situation it seems the traditional hierarchy is used to make newer students feel lowly, cow tow, and then not try as hard when touching hands with older students. This is a disrespectful way of being and a bad way of mentally conditioning students.

Perhaps this way of utilizing the hierarchy was to protect against disrepectful students. That's definitely tangible because there are people out there that can and will act like d!ks in the school purposely trying to embarrass someone. Students like this should be weeded out in their first few months. These students and seniors do not make for a good learning environment.


Does this hierarchy system get abused or used to cultivate manners and respect in all of your schools?

[sanjuro_ronin]

The teacher - senior - junior system is present in every MA that I know of.
Even in modern sports you have the Head coach- coach- asst coaches and what not.
It just makes thing ssimplier and more effective for all.
And yes, only a D1Ck would correct one of his assistents in public like that, heck YOU choose the assistent and if he/she makes a mistake, its as much your fault as theirs.

[bawang]

hierarchy makes cult environment
if people spar and fight they automatically know their place
respect in wulin is not based on politeness its based on fear
best comparison is to the mafia

[sanjuro_ronin]

hierarchy makes cult environment
if people spar and fight they automatically know their place
respect in wulin is not based on politeness its based on fear

The best teacher is not always the best fighter, that's like saying the gym the lifts the most in the gym is the best Strength coach.
Nothing is based on fear, other than ignorance.

[SavvySavage]

You can't expect an ancient old sifu to spar his 20 year old students. Then none of them would have respect for him according to your statment

[bawang]

The best teacher is not always the best fighter, that's like saying the gym the lifts the most in the gym is the best Strength coach.
Nothing is based on fear, other than ignorance.

you are talking about modern times, everyone knows the best way to do everything, its all about motivating your student motivating your customer, in old day people motivate themselves, the best fighters often had th best training methods, thats why you hear about "super duper secret raining methods"

You can't expect an ancient old sifu to spar his 20 year old students. Then none of them would have respect for him according to your statment

im saying he should have been good fighter some time in his life , rite

im wasnt talking about sifu in the first place man, i was saying if the students fight and spar more oftens, maybe there would be less of those dooshebaggas you were talking about in your post, man

Its based on respect, not fear. You need to read more sun tzu and less makiaveli.

My best friends are the people who have beat me down and who I have beaten down in return.

i am talking about traditional kung fu culture
it hsa always been about fear because respect= fear
in army you drill wrong make too many mistakes you are executed by the general
in the green forest if your skill not good and you run into big loot, your friend kills you and takes the money all for himself
you take someone's performance spot and medicine selling spot, he comes with friends and tie you up and kil you

[Exadon]

a best teacher not always best fighter thats true, but bad fighter always bad teachers

Unless they teach math

[sanjuro_ronin]

a best teacher not always best fighter thats true, but bad fighter always bad teachers


im saying he should have been good fighter some time in his life , rite

im wasnt talking about sifu in the first place man, i was saying if the students fight and spar more oftens, maybe there would be less of those dooshebaggas you were talking about in your post, man

It depends on what you wanna learn, I knew a guy that was not a very good fighter but had an encylopedic knowledge of forms.

[bawang]

It depends on what you wanna learn, I knew a guy that was not a very good fighter but had an encylopedic knowledge of forms.

i thought we were talking about traditional kung fu because thread said traditional hierarchy
form learning form collecting, dont know if that is traditional

[SavvySavage]

I'm not sure if traditional means male macho bullsh!t. CAuse that's what it seems like you're talking about, bawang. Disrespectful students are the ones who only want to learn from those that can manhandle them in a fight. What kind of attitude is this?

Mutual respect is my ideal way to run a school but...I've found that it doesn't last long in some students. Still, I'm an idealist

[bawang]

hi savvy, yes i think traditional means male macho, i dont htink its bullsh1t

[SavvySavage]

I think traditional meant that in some schools at certain times in their development. Some teachers are still like that today and I understand to a certain extent why. Traditional teachers didn't answer students' questions for a few reasons(not all of them all the time): 1. They didn't know the answer. 2. They didn't want to tell. 3. They were in a bad mood. 4. MOST IMPORTANTLY, the best teacher is doing and asking is not doing. I think traditional teachers don't answer questions sometimes due to different combinations of the above

[bawang]

hi savvy, i dont understand what you mean, i dont think not answering questions is macho, i think sparring and fighting can correct the douchebags yo usaid in your post, because most big mouths dont fight good, but stay longer than new studant so look down o thems

i think military style helps motivate people, but yes it can discourage some other people


there is a saying "lei tai is covered with blood and tears" and "performing blood opera for stale yellow rice"
there was a time when looking at a kung fu guy wrong can get you kiled
sort of reminds me of wiggers listening to gangsta rap, doesnt make them gangsters



yes there is a lot of ego and people liek to show off, but hierchy doesnt stop that, only mutual respect and fear a asswhipings
i liek to tell pepoples i dont know anyhting

[David Jamieson]

oh hey, here's a thought....grow up! lol

all social constructs function with a heirarchy except for a group of peers.

when you enter into any "school" you know nothing of that school or what they offer and ergo, you are low man on the totem. any school.

if you go to a school and you already know everything, well why are you there?

you don't undermine someone else in the heirarchy because of the psychology of the situation.

Heirarchical order is maintained for the youngest of minds. It is necessary.

It is known that if you want to be a leader, you have to learn how to follow first. How can you expect people to follow you if you don't know how to do what they are doing? If you can't share the experience of rising up, then you don't have anything in common with the rest of the heirarchy and you will be rejected or will have to put in many times more the effort to have people even pay attention to you whether what you have to offer is good or not.

It can be troublesome, but that is because of self absorption, overswollen ego and so on.

If you can't bend a knee to listen, then you don't deserve to be told.

That's life. Don't like it? Walk alone and see how far that takes you.

[Drake]

You need a chain of command, or else people forget their place. They end up wanting to teach the teacher, or going over peoples' heads because they don't understand the system. If you are a beginner, you are a beginner, and your purpose is to learn from the more experienced above you. You aren't on the same level as them, as much as you'd like to be, and you certainly are not in a position to make demands.

When you eventually become a teacher yourself, you will want people to behave according to their rank, as it makes the school MUCH more manageable, and you don't lose credibility because all of the students think they are equal. They aren't. That's reality. As a beginner, you will eventually have your time in the spotlight, but it isn't now.

As for chastising subordinates in public, that is wrong. It demeans the authority of those you've placed in charge, and makes their jobs more difficult to accomplish. It also causes them to lose respect for you. The rule is, praise in public, criticize in private. You pull the trainer in after it's over, and go over where they made mistakes, and set up a plan to ensure it doesn't happen again.

This is Leadership 101, folks.