Wing Chun and The root

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am not talking about Randori but something even basic

do the beginer still do front fall, side fall to prepare for ipon seoi nage.....ect and roll to prepare for tomonage these days?

Breakfalls are not "rolling" Hendrick.
Just as doing SLT is not fighting.
To equate rolling around to SLT is actually quite the insult to SLT, no?
What is your WC background by the way?

[Hendrik]

Breakfalls are not "rolling" Hendrick.

so what do you call the "rolling" to prepare for the tomonage?

Those type of "rolling" is what I refer to.

Just as doing SLT is not fighting.

Who talks about SLT is fighting?

To equate rolling around to SLT is actually quite the insult to SLT, no?

I define "Rolling" above for equavalent purpose.

where is insult comes in to play?

What is your WC background by the way?

Low and beginner level.

[Hendrik]

You look at WCK from the preconceived notion that there is a "right" or "proper" way to do things.

I dont.

I have my way. But my way may be different than someone else's. What matters is how well we can use it however we use it.

You certainly can call that Terence kuen but is it WCK?

If someone can use their YJKYM differently than me but to great effect, how can I say they are wrong?

There is nothing right or wrong. The point is what is YJKYM for WCK ? until that being clearly define, who knows what is WCK?

And you can't develop a fighting skill "before" fighting -- that's like trying to develop bike riding skills before riding the bike.

One only can get this far if the YJKYM, SLT/SNT basic got iron out clearly.

You're not DOING WCK unless you are fighting.

Again, the basic above is not even iron out yet. So, going this far is only add to the cofusion.

Why is that type of Fighting is call WCK instead of Hung Gar or CLF or Boxing or pentjat silat?

Practicing a form isn't DOING WCK -- it is practicing the movements in the air.

Practicing form is a part of WCK, it is not the Total of WCK. and one needs to know what is one doing and what is the reason of doing it and what result is expected and why .

Forms/sets don't develop anything. They are a really poor way of training.

If one cannot precisely answer the two simple beginer level questions as the above.

Then, is it the forms/sets? or those who mimic things without common sense?

Unfortunately, the ancient chinese had very little idea of how to teach or how people best learned.

That is your opinion. no comment.

Practicing forms is not the same thing as rolling or randori -- rolling and randori are forms of sparring.

Randori is not what I mean.

I mean basic "rolling" such as the basic "rolling" in the tatami practice one practice to prepare before Tomonage.

[sanjuro_ronin]

so what do you call the "rolling" to prepare for the tomonage?

Those type of "rolling" is what I refer to.

Not sure what you are referring to, you don't roll to prepare for a tomoe-nage, you may roll as PART of the break fall off a tomoe-nage, but not really, not if it is done correctly.
You can roll on certain break falls as PART of the break fall, but to call a break fall a roll is liek saying that extending your arm is a punch.

[Hendrik]

QFT.

Hendrick, I do not believe we will ever see eye to eye on this.

Return to your ancient scrolls, the dead are whispering to you from across the ages.

Who is keep mentioning about ancient scrolls?

I Focus only on the two simple questions above.

[Edmund]

I mean basic "rolling" such as the basic "rolling" in the tatami practice one practice to prepare before Tomonage.

Forward Ukemi.

It's good practice to prepare to be thrown.

I don't know why SLT would be the WC equivalent.
Perhaps WC ukemi should be punching yourself in the face.

[Hendrik]

Not sure what you are referring to, you don't roll to prepare for a tomoe-nage, you may roll as PART of the break fall off a tomoe-nage, but not really, not if it is done correctly.

see, that " if it done correctly" is a big issue.


For me,
"Roll " and YJKYM/SLT/SNT are the basic bread and butter of the system they lead one to get comfortable on what one is going to do for further progress.

thus, the two questions above are very important.



so back to the basic two questions and anyone wants to take a bite at them? Basic WCK right?



what is the criterion or the attainment for you to know your YJKYM is proper? or What kind of result you need to attain in the beginer level?


what kind of result or attainment for you to know your SLT/SNT is practice properly in the beginer level?

[Yoshiyahu]

Do you practice Wing Chun?

What is your main art of practice?

Who is keep mentioning about ancient scrolls?

I Focus only on the two simple questions above.

[Hendrik]

Do you practice Wing Chun?

I do SLT.

What is your main art of practice?

the art of dissolve oneself into nature

[sanjuro_ronin]

see, that " if it done correctly" is a big issue.


For me,
"Roll " and YJKYM/SLT/SNT are the basic bread and butter of the system they lead one to get comfortable on what one is going to do for further progress.

thus, the two questions above are very important.



so back to the basic two questions and anyone wants to take a bite at them? Basic WCK right?



what is the criterion or the attainment for you to know your YJKYM is proper? or What kind of result you need to attain in the beginer level?


what kind of result or attainment for you to know your SLT/SNT is practice properly in the beginer level?

I worry about you sometimes.

[m1k3]

I do SLT.




the art of dissolve oneself into nature

THIS explains a lot. Tofu and Koolaid.

[taai gihk yahn]

the art of dissolve oneself into nature

THIS explains a lot. Tofu and Koolaid.

well, as freak-a-doodle as it may sound, from a Taoist or Buddhist perspective, it's not as crunchy-granola as you may think; it refers to what might best be described as practicing "non-differentiation", or, in other words, seeing the big picture at the same time that one is caught up in the day-to-day struggles of one's life; it's like that whole "don't sweat the small stuff; and it's all small stuff" bit that was popular a while ago; so dissolving into nature is, in part, practicing a degree of equanimity towards all things: responding relatively dispassionately based on direct observation to what comes ones way, as opposed to knee-jerk reacting all the time based on one's habitual response patterns; again, not a big deal - Ch'an Buddhist practice spends most of its time cultivating this, Taoism does as well to a certain degree, albeit with a few more bells and whistles in terms of methodology; so, i think Hendrick, as is his wont, is waxing a bit literary here; at least that's my take on it...

[m1k3]

well, as freak-a-doodle as it may sound, from a Taoist or Buddhist perspective, it's not as crunchy-granola as you may think; it refers to what might best be described as practicing "non-differentiation", or, in other words, seeing the big picture at the same time that one is caught up in the day-to-day struggles of one's life; it's like that whole "don't sweat the small stuff; and it's all small stuff" bit that was popular a while ago; so dissolving into nature is, in part, practicing a degree of equanimity towards all things: responding relatively dispassionately based on direct observation to what comes ones way, as opposed to knee-jerk reacting all the time based on one's habitual response patterns; again, not a big deal - Ch'an Buddhist practice spends most of its time cultivating this, Taoism does as well to a certain degree, albeit with a few more bells and whistles in terms of methodology; so, i think Hendrick, as is his wont, is waxing a bit literary here; at least that's my take on it...

I have no problem with that. I managed to make it to 55, raise two daughters, have 4 grandchildren and all the other stuff that life brings and still remain somewhat centered.

But what does that have to do with Wing Chun. If you want to study Buddhism or Zen or Taoism or even witchcraft go for it. Martial Arts are for learning to fight or at least pretending to learn how to fight.

You can mix your philosophy with Wing Chun but don't make the mistake of seeing it as a requirement for Wing Chun. I am a bit of a history buff and have read enough to know that a lot of the old kung fu masters were mean nasty people who hung out at bars, beat people up, drank and did drugs. Hardly role models for anyone except maybe outlaw bikers.

[t_niehoff]

see, that " if it done correctly" is a big issue.

Yes, doing any physical skill "correctly' is important. And as I've repeatedly told you, you can only tell if a fighting skill is done "correctly" by and through fighting -- you can't tell if a fighting skill is done "correctly" by not fighting (you may believe you're doing it correctly and find out that it falls apart when fighting). That would be like trying to judge if you were doing a bike riding skill correctly (steering for instance) without riding the bike or a skiing skill without skiing -- it wouldn't make any sense.

For me,
"Roll " and YJKYM/SLT/SNT are the basic bread and butter of the system they lead one to get comfortable on what one is going to do for further progress.

Splendid -- you used the "magic words": 'for me' (for you). Thereby indicating this was ONLY your view, and not a pronouncement on behalf of WCK.

thus, the two questions above are very important.

so back to the basic two questions and anyone wants to take a bite at them? Basic WCK right?

what is the criterion or the attainment for you to know your YJKYM is proper? or What kind of result you need to attain in the beginer level?

what kind of result or attainment for you to know your SLT/SNT is practice properly in the beginer level?

I'll bite, but first say that I don't see things in terms of "beginner level".

For me, the YJKYM is essentially the body structure we need to be able to implement the WCK attached method of fighting which is to control an opponent while striking him (using the WCK tools). So your "attainment" is measured by how well you can contol an opponent while striking him.

[Yoshiyahu]

I do SLT.




the art of dissolve oneself into nature

Why do you do Sil Lim Tao?