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Thread: Wing Chun and The root

  1. #31
    The following are IMHHHHHO, if you dont like it ignore it.




    But one stood out concerning the Kuit Kuen...what does the Wing Chun Kuen Kuit and sayings say about stillness and movement? --------


    IMHO, one needs to have a strong foundation training to be able to know what is it. There is no stillness and movement, there is only flow.

    As it said, Comes accept, goes let it go back, set free and proceed, using silence to lead action.

    There is no mention of stillness and movement, there is only one thing --- FLOW.







    Habititually or Naturally. ----HS

    You have to make it habit. Thats were drilling comes in. Drill defense against round house kicks. Drill defense against fast jab.Drill defense against shoot. etc etc. -------

    That is a kiss of death. make a habit until the habit running one un consciously. That is not Nature as what the TCMA or Lao TZu means when it said Dao is to follow Nature.








    Better words for Naturally
    Habitually
    Practice
    Spontaneous
    Instinctively
    Automatic Response

    Also:
    Natural Response due to habitual practice! ------


    This all are man made stuffs. Good to think about but mostly have no clue what is what in action.

    In the Chinese they call this, Discussing War Fare on paper. Meaning it is just empty words.

    For example,
    Habitual and Spontaneous are different thing. Can you differentiate that? can you body know what is habitual and what is spontaneous? What is a habitual Tan sau what is a Sponatneous Tan sau, there is big different.






    Stillness: Well redirecting force with out moving backwards or stepping to side.
    Movement: Constant stepping -----


    To be real honest, what you describe is just mental speculation. No insult intended.

    Your world is just a plain two directional world while in reality there are atleast 6 directional. with your awareness cannot know it, your body cant adapt to it.






    I drill certain techniques so when sparring They can become reflex actions.----


    That is not what the kuen kuit teaches, the Kuen kuit said Comes accept, goes let it go back, set free and proceed, using silence to lead action.

    Your training seem logical but it is setting your own boundary and limit. until somedays you are doom by your reflex action. Because you dont know silence means spontaneous no habitual reflex action.





    In sparring I try to get live practice of defending against multiple vectors and ranges of attacks. ------


    What is multiple vectors and ranges of attacks? those are show business. IMHO.

    in real life, everything is multiple dimensional, every single move.

    people often use multiple dimensional....etc that is just to point out the existance of multi-dimensional in every single move. there no need to create a multiple vectors....

    again, in real life all the dimensional is just one flow. how to deal with the flow is the key, not to be bug down by those finger pointing at the moon.






    Root=solidness and strong structure implanted in the ground -------



    Those BJJ guys have root better then you.
    because falling is nature ,
    and your so called rooting is against nature.

    Thus, you are against the law of nature. so, no matter what you do, your structure will not be able to sustain.

    Look even sky scrapper fall. how strong can you structure?

    again,

    The WCK never said what you said above

    It SAid, Comes accept, goes let it go back, set free and proceed, using silence to lead action.

    So what do you do? WCK? not likely according the WCK Kuen Kuit.

    Hey Sir AWAKE, WCK just said FLOW. Not standing there trying to resist anyone trying to take you down based on the law of gravity.







    Chi=enery -----


    Empty words.




    Fajin=explosive power -----


    Empty words like OPIUM with delude lots and lots of people.



    These are simple paraphrases of my opinion...it goes deeper but concerning the Root, Chi and Fajin you know what they mean? ------


    It is not about Know what they mean. it is about can one do it? Not words.






    I have practice the root on and off for like 16 years..but recently been getting back into it from my recent neglection. I have been working on other elements of the WC primarily. -------


    AS I said above, you can practice another 16 years and I guarentee you got take down.

    Why? because you have a wrong concept which trying to go against the law of nature. and the WCK ancestor doesnt teach what you think is WCK.





    Can tree move at all? No. Can a human move? yes? We are both pliable and immovable.-----

    again all thinking.



    Needless to say a 120lbs doesn't stand there when a 270lbs lionbacker is rushing towards him. -----


    sure a a 120lbs doesn't stand there when a 270lbs lionbacker is rushing towards him, and in the law of nature it is not suppose to. So why do it?




    WC is about turning off force right? Why use your root to take force greater than you? ------


    What ROOT? What force?

    What does the WCK kuen kuit said?

    It SAid, Comes accept, goes let it go back, set free and proceed, using silence to lead action.





    Please read this article concerning Root! ------
    http://www.mainewingchunkungfu.com/article1.htm


    Fajin:


    Root and Chi




    No insult intent but purely straight honest and technical.
    That is not what the ancient WCK ancestors writting teaches.






    I don't know anyone who can use their root to stop from being taken down. I know my root is not that strong. But if its possible I would like to try to take the guy down myself who has a strong root. To see if I can get him down. I can see a strong root stopping a sweep but not a dead lift or bear hug. ------


    So what is the purpose of ROOT? why keep training in it where the Kuen Kuit doesnt endose it, where it can stop being taken down?

    What is the point?



    With a grappler you need strikes,skill and movement along with redirection of force. These are keys to advoiding a take down in my foolish opinion. -----



    until falling is nature you have no chance. IMHO.

    and if falling is nature why avoiding take down? Why resist it? what is bad to be take down?

    and

    What is the Kuen Kuit said?



    It SAid, Comes accept, goes let it go back, set free and proceed, using silence to lead action.


    These days people read but dont comprehend, isnt it?

    Hello, anyone still do WCK?











    More concerning the root:




    I am surprise you never learn about Root in WC when in China. Perhaps maybe since you are Gwalo they choose not to share certain things with you. ----

    or may be I cut through all the craps and directing into the core of the core?



    I practice root when I am sitting down in my stance and sinking my body weight to ground. I also practice moving in and out of the root. --------


    and what is the kuen kuit said? anything about ROOT?







    As for inside fighting. A friend of mines is a bigger guy then me. So to withstand his forward pressure I have to root. Otherwise I will be flopping around like a rag doll. It allows me other options. Also you never know you may have to fight in hallway,back up against an alley wall,bathroom,stairway or elevator. Where you can only sink your stance because a whole lot moving is not an option. -----

    again, what is the WCK kuen kuit says?




    You seem like a knowledgeable guy. -----

    I just grow older and become more foolish these days. saying things I am not suppose to said.





    Do I have to explain the list is a compare and contrast of options one can use in a fight?

    1.Tan Sau or Jum sau
    2.Bong Sau or Bong Gerk
    3.Bridging or not Bridiging
    4.Pak Sau or Huen Sau
    5.Light skills or Stance rooting
    6.Footwork skills or Pivoting
    7.Soft Power or Hard Power
    8.Speed or Strength
    9.Punches or Kicks
    10.Arm breaks or Pressure point strikes




    and WHAT is the Kuen Kuit said? why is the kuen kuit doesnt come with all kind of laundry list and figthing fighting? but accept and return and set free and silence? are you doing WCK?





    What you train the most will come out while fighting. But the key is to be well rounded in your WC? --------


    There is no well rounded in one's WC. there is only Let Go and Let God, according to the kuen kuit


    It SAid, Comes accept, goes let it go back, set free and proceed, using silence to lead action.


    Dont waste life, make good use of your life. fighting is not the default. living happily and peacefully is the default. Thus, they call it spring.


    Just some thoughts
    Last edited by Hendrik; 03-18-2009 at 09:19 PM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond View Post
    The term Aikido was first used in 1942. Shintoism and Buddhism are intertwined in Japanese culture so you're both right. I also agree with the old soldier statement made by SimonM. O'Sensei abandoned some of the fighting aspects of Daito - Ryu Aikijujutsu when he got spiritual.
    Sorry Phil, I'm going to stand firm on this one: you are wrong, too. I'll take it here to cut the noise on this thread.
    Last edited by Mr Punch; 03-18-2009 at 10:06 PM.
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  3. #33
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    right

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond View Post
    I know you made a mistake and meant to write Kuen Kuit instead of Kuit Kuen.
    You are absolutely right...I agree...


    http://www.wcarchive.com/articles/ma...eneral_Sayings

    Extreme softness enables one to be hard. Being extremely natural enables one to be agile.


    Hand techniques must follow the Yin Yang principle. Strength must be applied with inner power. There is a counteraction to every attack.

    chi comes out of the Tan Tien, and travels along the waist, the thighs, and the back.

    No harm will come if chi is nurtured naturally. Power can be stored but with enough to spare

    Store mental energy with the mind. Move chi with mental energy. Exert strength with chi. Generate power with strength.

    Power is generated from the joints. Strength originates from the heels.

    Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma - Train the chi by controlling the Tan Tien.

    To release chi from the Tan Tien, will enable proper release of power.

    Internally develop the chi; externally train the tendons, bones and muscles.

    Fill the Tan Tien with chi and distribute the strength to all parts of the body.

    Sink your inner chi.

    Siu Lim Tau mainly trains internal power.



    http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/...Kuit#Specific3

    Yee Yao Jai Gong - (Use soft to overcome hard)

    Yee Ching Jai Dong - (Use stillness to overcome Movement)

    If the root is stable, the fight will be stable.

  4. #34
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    Root

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    The following are IMHHHHHO, if you dont like it ignore it.
    But one stood out concerning the Kuit Kuen...what does the Wing Chun Kuen Kuit and sayings say about stillness and movement? --------IMHO, one needs to have a strong foundation training to be able to know what is it. There is no stillness and movement, there is only flow. As it said, Comes accept, goes let it go back, set free and proceed, using silence to lead action.
    The Immovable Root was talked about outside of the WC forum too I believe!

    http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ead.php?t=1750


    Here is a video I don't know how true it is or even if its applicable against a wrestler or grappler.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm2CA5HVA0Y

    Now I have listed above from other styles outside of Wing Chun dealing with the root. I also seen a video of a guy standing in Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma on a scale who was able to cycle the energy down to his feet and not be pushed or pulled.

    I can not find the video...But if I do i will post it later!

    As for the various purpose of your root in lets say Hung Gar or Karate its to develop the Qi or Chi. http://www.shaolin.org/general-2/horse-stance.html

    Heres a video of some using YGKYM in Chi Kung. maybe the Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma is used for cultivating chi. So standing in the stance builds Chi.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sebCAJhVH_o


    Questions Concerning Wingchun:
    Why do you think Some Wing Chun schools in the West center on building a root?

    Also have you ever known any chinese to speak of the Root in Wing Chun?

    What does sinking your chi have to do with your root?

  5. #35
    ALL empty words.



    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    You are absolutely right...I agree...


    http://www.wcarchive.com/articles/ma...eneral_Sayings

    Extreme softness enables one to be hard. Being extremely natural enables one to be agile.


    Hand techniques must follow the Yin Yang principle. Strength must be applied with inner power. There is a counteraction to every attack.

    chi comes out of the Tan Tien, and travels along the waist, the thighs, and the back.

    No harm will come if chi is nurtured naturally. Power can be stored but with enough to spare

    Store mental energy with the mind. Move chi with mental energy. Exert strength with chi. Generate power with strength.

    Power is generated from the joints. Strength originates from the heels.

    Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma - Train the chi by controlling the Tan Tien.

    To release chi from the Tan Tien, will enable proper release of power.

    Internally develop the chi; externally train the tendons, bones and muscles.

    Fill the Tan Tien with chi and distribute the strength to all parts of the body.

    Sink your inner chi.

    Siu Lim Tau mainly trains internal power.



    http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/...Kuit#Specific3

    Yee Yao Jai Gong - (Use soft to overcome hard)

    Yee Ching Jai Dong - (Use stillness to overcome Movement)

    If the root is stable, the fight will be stable.

  6. #36
    You might study WCK but you dont know WCK.

    and, other art is not WCK either. Hung gar is Hung gar, Shao Lin is shao lin.

    You certainly could mix different stuffs to call it Yoshiyahu style. But that is not WCK.




    and only ignorance people will believe in a simple un realisitc demo is applicable against a wrestler or grappler.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm2CA5HVA0Y






    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    The Immovable Root was talked about outside of the WC forum too I believe!

    http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ead.php?t=1750


    Here is a video I don't know how true it is or even if its applicable against a wrestler or grappler.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm2CA5HVA0Y

    Now I have listed above from other styles outside of Wing Chun dealing with the root. I also seen a video of a guy standing in Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma on a scale who was able to cycle the energy down to his feet and not be pushed or pulled.

    I can not find the video...But if I do i will post it later!

    As for the various purpose of your root in lets say Hung Gar or Karate its to develop the Qi or Chi. http://www.shaolin.org/general-2/horse-stance.html

    Heres a video of some using YGKYM in Chi Kung. maybe the Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma is used for cultivating chi. So standing in the stance builds Chi.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sebCAJhVH_o


    Questions Concerning Wingchun:
    Why do you think Some Wing Chun schools in the West center on building a root?

    Also have you ever known any chinese to speak of the Root in Wing Chun?

    What does sinking your chi have to do with your root?
    Last edited by Hendrik; 03-19-2009 at 11:39 AM.

  7. #37
    Why do you think Some Wing Chun schools in the West center on building a root? --------------


    No idea.



    But it is obvious root is not mention in the Kuen Kuit ----> Comes accept..... using silence to lead action.






    Also have you ever known any chinese to speak of the Root in Wing Chun? -----


    Chinese can speak of anything but being Chinese or from China doesnt mean WING CHUN.





    What does sinking your chi have to do with your root?-------


    What is Chi? What is root? is it WCK? can you do it? can those who tell you can do it?
    Last edited by Hendrik; 03-19-2009 at 11:41 AM.

  8. #38
    I know, I am starting brutally shoot down everything.

    Yup. I purposely do that.

    just hope that people wake up. If you dont like other's nonsense critics then wake up and know what you are doing.



    And if you dont like my posts please ignored it. Thanks.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 03-19-2009 at 11:47 AM.

  9. #39

    Root

    IMHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHO,

    ROOT is a mislead term copy from the Taiji classical.




    In The Taiji Classical , it aid " the root source is in the leg........ Focus on Yee not on Qi, using the Yee lead the Qi and transport the body...."



    Some one without the attainment, inteprate/translate take the Root directly as the ultimate,
    and not proceed to "Focus on Yee not on Qi, using the Yee lead the Qi and transport the body " which is the final result one needs to attain.


    That screw up everything.

    because people are mislead to think "ROOT" is the advance... magic.....etc . Not to know that it was mention there in the Taiji classic at the very begining just to address physical motion starts from the feet to help the beginer be able to handle the physical body properly in a unify motion.




    But some copy that partial term, import to their practice, and market it as the supreme advance top chinese secret. Boy, what damage will this partial incomplete in accurate information cause? It can cause WCK to wipe out a whole new generation --- rooted the YJKYM.

    and because of FACE or I have it too mentality, when people talk about Root and structure....etc they will say, "oh I have it too." and the mimic and the propagation of misleading continuous similar to watching the TV commercial and wearing the same green cloth because it is cool and looks smart.


    So, how to root the YJKYM in a non WCK way? well, you could use the Hung Gar Iron wire set way. or Using Shao Lin horse stance way.

    But then, both way makes you violate the WCK Kuen Kuit --- Come accept Goes return it.... which telling you flow with every momentum instead of ROOT and resistance to every momentum.


    So, do you want to put an end to this stupid copy cat damage? follow the Kuen Kuit instead of any one's saying. ask to the depth what is the purpose of the training and what is the advance attainment.


    To be real honest, if the YKYM cant open up /activate the 8 special medirians,
    you are sitting duck/Turkey or ROOT duck/Turkey prepare to be roast. because you cant operate the body effectively and cant move properly! Yap, put your elbow in the center line, and wait for A, un nature body post which influenc health B, the BJJ put thier head on your chest and take you down.


    and just by standing there acting like standing post Zhan Zhuang or working hard doesnt build up your chi or stance. you can do it years or even decade it doesnt do you any good. in fact, most end up with stress tense legs and screw up breathing.

    Thus, in WCK it said, Learning has no Junior or senior, those who master the art is the teacher. That is nothing to do with standing there like a Turkey for 80 years and be the grand master.




    REALLY REALLY SAD story and people buy into the partial misleading rooting stuffs.




    OK, the above is just my opinion, you dont like it throw it in the garbage. If you think there is some truth in it, probe deep into it.

    and in the sametime, be a nice person instead of always thinking fighting fighting and always delusion on "oh what to do if this guy do this and that guy do that....".


    Doesnt the kuen kuit tell us WCner to "using silence to lead action" ?, if we keep thinking garbage when is our mind going to be quiet and know that silence? and when can the silence lead the action?

    again, are you do WCK? if yes, then listern to what the ancestor teaches instead of create a mess for yourself.


    living peacefully everyday is much much better then living in those delusion. and living in peace also accord to the teaching of the WCK principle.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 03-19-2009 at 12:38 PM.

  10. #40
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    "hoc mo mo gong sien hou, tat jei wai sien."

    "lai lou hui soong, lut sao jik chung". Go with the flow baby.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    ALL empty words.
    How can those words be empty?

    Please explain?

    As for Root. Its apart of Tai Chi correct, Its apart of Hung Gar,Karate, and many other styles of Kung Fu. But its not something advance...It is very basic. Like steps,punchs and kicks.

    Come accept Goes return it.... which telling you flow with every momentum instead of ROOT and resistance to every momentum.
    Well if you punch at me with a right cross. I Tan Sau or pak sau and then follow your attacking hand to hit your opening. Can I not do this while being rooted?
    Except what comes,accompany what leaves.

    most end up with stress tense legs and screw up breathing.
    1.Stretch before and afterwards(Get rid of stress and tense muslces).
    2.Breath naturally


    Did some School or Sifu hurt you? Where is all this negative emotion coming from?

    Did some teach you bull S*** in the past? Is that why your so angry?

    Why do mainland WC guys seem to have a deeper YGKYM than Hong Kong?


    Not for clarification. Developing the root is for different reasons. Someone punching you in the head you don't stand an put your face because your root is so strong. You parry,deflect or intercept. If someone is shooting for your legs standing there waiting for hit is stupid. Why not move. Someone trying to throw a hard kick at you. Do you stick your chest out an take it. Or do you move. No. Stance training strenghten your legs and builds chi. An in transitional periods you do root. But not constantly.

  12. #42
    How can those words be empty?
    Please explain? -----

    Can you do it? can those who translate to english do it? if not it is just empty words.






    As for Root. Its apart of Tai Chi correct, Its apart of Hung Gar,Karate, and many other styles of Kung Fu. But its not something advance...It is very basic. Like steps,punchs and kicks. ---------



    Are we talking about Tai Chi, Hung Gar, Karate here?
    or we are talking about WCK?




    Well if you punch at me with a right cross.
    I Tan Sau or pak sau and then follow your attacking hand to hit your opening.
    Can I not do this while being rooted?
    Except what comes,accompany what leaves. -------------



    Lots of if. To many if and all type of senerios.... to many head thinking.






    1.Stretch before and afterwards(Get rid of stress and tense muslces).
    2.Breath naturally --------


    there it said your stuffs doesnt cultivate Chi.









    Did some School or Sifu hurt you? Where is all this negative emotion coming from?----

    You miss read.

    It is not negative emotion, it is alarm clock. hope that some one will awake.





    Did some teach you bull S*** in the past? Is that why your so angry? -------


    It is not angle is it sadness. sadness that WCK might not last another 20 years.





    Why do mainland WC guys seem to have a deeper YGKYM than Hong Kong? ------

    ask them.




    Not for clarification. Developing the root is for different reasons. Someone punching you in the head you don't stand an put your face because your root is so strong.

    You parry,deflect or intercept.

    If someone is shooting for your legs standing there waiting for hit is stupid. Why not move. Someone trying to throw a hard kick at you. Do you stick your chest out an take it. Or do you move. No. --------


    Is that WCK?



    Stance training strenghten your legs and builds chi. An in transitional periods you do root. But not constantly. -------


    tell me how long have you do the stance? how strong is your legs ? and what is the chi builds up?


    again, what is stance? what is root? are these WCK's or other style's concept?
    Last edited by Hendrik; 03-19-2009 at 08:56 PM.

  13. #43
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    alot of typing

    You do alot of typing...But not real substance to what you are saying. Alot of high sounding reason but no real thought behind it.

    Lets start off simple?

    What is the purpose of developing a root in Tai Chi?


    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    How can those words be empty?
    Please explain? -----

    Can you do it? can those who translate to english do it? if not it is just empty words.






    As for Root. Its apart of Tai Chi correct, Its apart of Hung Gar,Karate, and many other styles of Kung Fu. But its not something advance...It is very basic. Like steps,punchs and kicks. ---------



    Are we talking about Tai Chi, Hung Gar, Karate here?
    or we are talking about WCK?




    Well if you punch at me with a right cross.
    I Tan Sau or pak sau and then follow your attacking hand to hit your opening.
    Can I not do this while being rooted?
    Except what comes,accompany what leaves. -------------



    Lots of if. To many if and all type of senerios.... to many head thinking.






    1.Stretch before and afterwards(Get rid of stress and tense muslces).
    2.Breath naturally --------


    there it said your stuffs doesnt cultivate Chi.









    Did some School or Sifu hurt you? Where is all this negative emotion coming from?----

    You miss read.

    It is not negative emotion, it is alarm clock. hope that some one will awake.





    Did some teach you bull S*** in the past? Is that why your so angry? -------


    It is not angle is it sadness. sadness that WCK might not last another 20 years.





    Why do mainland WC guys seem to have a deeper YGKYM than Hong Kong? ------

    ask them.




    Not for clarification. Developing the root is for different reasons. Someone punching you in the head you don't stand an put your face because your root is so strong.

    You parry,deflect or intercept.

    If someone is shooting for your legs standing there waiting for hit is stupid. Why not move. Someone trying to throw a hard kick at you. Do you stick your chest out an take it. Or do you move. No. --------


    Is that WCK?



    Stance training strenghten your legs and builds chi. An in transitional periods you do root. But not constantly. -------


    tell me how long have you do the stance? how strong is your legs ? and what is the chi builds up?


    again, what is stance? what is root? are these WCK's or other style's concept?

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    You do alot of typing...But not real substance to what you are saying. Alot of high sounding reason but no real thought behind it.

    I suggest you to re read my previous posts because the answer of " What is the purpose of developing a root in Tai Chi?" is there.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    I suggest you to re read my previous posts because the answer of " What is the purpose of developing a root in Tai Chi?" is there.
    What is the purpose of developing a root in Tai Chi?

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