Page 4 of 21 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 313

Thread: Wing Chun and The root

  1. #46
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Behind you!
    Posts
    6,163
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    Well if you punch at me with a right cross. I Tan Sau or pak sau and then follow your attacking hand to hit your opening. Can I not do this while being rooted?
    Except what comes,accompany what leaves.
    Yes, you can. But there is no root in the kuen kuit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    You do alot of typing...But not real substance to what you are saying. Alot of high sounding reason but no real thought behind it.

    Lets start off simple?
    Mate, he can write it as simple as humanly possible and you don't seem to understand. He has already said: there is NO ROOT IN WING CHUN! WTF is high sounding reason about that?

    Now, I'm not sure if I agree with him or not, but it does make more sense than a lot of trash about wing chun I hear, and I don't have anywhere near a deep enough knowledge of wing chun to argue with him, even after all these years. Plus, my wing chun is strong enough to do what I want it to do I reckon in most cases, and I am always learning and growing through it, which is sufficient for me, though maybe no substitute for Hendrik's Buddhist beliefs. Fair enough. I have an interest in Buddhism from a strictly lay PoV: I am not Hendrik.

    But the point is: he has said what he thinks clearly enough. If you are confused maybe you should stop asking questions about things he's already written and read them again - then we won't get these circular arguments ad nauseam.

    Hendrik, thanks for persevering with this thread. Interesting. I'd never thought about your point before... I'd never really bothered to even consider that if it's not in the kuen kuit it therefore may not be wing chun... lol, I'll have to think about that more.

    'The accept what comes, send what goes' always seemed to me to be the same as in many martial arts (I first came across it in aikido where it is the ultimate advocation of mobility) but I had always wondered how you were supposed to 'send' from one rooted position, and always aimed to do the opposite!

    Couple of questions:

    1) Are there no other expressions in any of the original Chinese that may be translated as 'root'-like concepts; eg. base?

    2) Does the concept of chum not cover rooting in a whole body sense?

    3) Is there a similar idea to the six directions of tai chi in wing chun? (This would maybe explain how to generate power through the spine, the muscle networks in your upper and lower back and the arch of your pelvic gridle together with the knees, feet etc without having to physically screw yourself into the ground)

    4) I had come to think of my root in wing chun as being not there until I turn it on for the point of impact, and being not there again after... as I said elsewhere on this thread... on-off energy just like the punch itself. According to you, is this a load of old bollocks?

    You don't have to soften anything for me... I like it straight!
    Last edited by Mr Punch; 03-23-2009 at 10:46 PM.
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  2. #47
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Huntington, NY, USA website: TenTigers.com
    Posts
    7,718
    alot of terms get misunderstood.
    "Sink your horse" would be better stated, "sink IN your horse." The difference is that one is squatting lower-which is nonsense, and the other is describing an internal connection.
    I believe the term,"Rooting," has suffered the same fate. Perhaps a better term would be structural alignmnet and connection. This implies a "Moveable root," but by saying "movable root", it adds to the confusion.
    Think of what a root is. It is what maintains the structural integrity of the tree, connecting it to the earth. Then, we misunderstand the "connection to the earth" part and think we should sink our stance and be immovable and rigid, rather than connecting with our yi and internal structure.
    just my thoughts on this.
    "My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
    Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"

    "I will not be part of the generation
    that killed Kung-Fu."

    ....step.

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    St.Louis Missouri
    Posts
    2,175
    What is the purpose of developing a root in Tai Chi?



    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch View Post
    Yes, you can. But there is no root in the kuen kuit.

    Mate, he can write it as simple as humanly possible and you don't seem to understand. He has already said: there is NO ROOT IN WING CHUN! WTF is high sounding reason about that?

    Now, I'm not sure if I agree with him or not, but it does make more sense than a lot of trash about wing chun I hear, and I don't have anywhere near a deep enough knowledge of wing chun to argue with him, even after all these years. Plus, my wing chun is strong enough to do what I want it to do I reckon in most cases, and I am always learning and growing through it, which is sufficient for me, though maybe no substitute for Hendrik's Buddhist beliefs. Fair enough. I have an interest in Buddhism from a strictly lay PoV: I am not Hendrik.

    But the point is: he has said what he thinks clearly enough. If you are confused maybe you should stop asking questions about things he's already written and read them again - then we won't get these circular arguments ad nauseam.

    Hendrik, thanks for persevering with this thread. Interesting. I'd never thought about your point before... I'd never really bothered to even consider that if it's not in the kuen kuit it therefore may not be wing chun... lol, I'll have to think about that more.

    'The accept what comes, send what goes' always seemed to me to be the same as in many martial arts (I first came across it in aikido where it is the ultimate advocation of mobility) but I had always wondered how you were supposed to 'send' from one rooted position, and always aimed to do the opposite!

    Couple of questions:

    1) Are there no other expressions in any of the original Chinese that may be translated as 'root'-like concepts; eg. base?

    2) Does the concept of chum not cover rooting in a whole body sense?

    3) Is there a similar idea to the six directions of tai chi in wing chun? (This would maybe explain how to generate power through the spine, the muscle networks in your upper and lower back and the arch of your pelvic gridle together with the knees, feet etc without having to physically screw yourself into the ground)

    4) I had come to think of my root in wing chun as being not there until I turn it on for the point of impact, and being not there again after... as I said elsewhere on this thread... on-off energy just like the punch itself. According to you, is this a load of old bollocks?

    You don't have to soften anything for me... I like it straight!

    Ten Tigers thank you for your Post...The best one yet!!!!

  4. #49
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Behind you!
    Posts
    6,163
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    What is the purpose of developing a root in Tai Chi?
    What's your purpose in quoting the whole of a long post and not asking anything relevant?
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  5. #50
    It is great to know a few of your out there read my post.

    To be real honest, we as WCner got to really examine what we practice compare with what is the teaching.


    The following are some in my mind which might as well share with you all.


    1, watch out what you practice and what you think you are practice.


    Analogy: Cooking sands cannot become rice. and most people today is cooking sands and thinking somedays it might become rice but totally have no clue on what is sand or rice.




    2, things got to making sense,


    IE: how the world one can flow when every day one keeps thinking and digging into Rooting.


    3, Flow = Let Go Let God = "comes accept, goes return, let go thrust forward, using silence to lead action = non attachement = Dao mimic Nature = wonderfull existence within emptiness



    These are the same things describe differently. Or in a brief. NOTHING is FIXED.

    One LET GO THE FIXED AND LET GOD DO THE JOB.

    The teaching can be from ANY Saints .. Buddha, LAo Tzu, Christ..... They just desribe it differently.

    Buddhism was used here because WCK is a Chinese Buddhist derive art, the TRuth is always the same be it from the east or west.

    There is no East or West, there is only How deep the level of teaching can goes.

    There is nothing philosophical at all. dont just push or blame everything as philosophy mombu jumbo when we dont have a clue on what is going on.





    If one creates a fixed or a ROOT or a post or a technics or a method.....etc that FIXED is a limitation or boundary. when a method is created, its limitation also comes with it.

    IE A Chain Punch created the limitation also comes with it.

    Thus, FIXED means stuck. One can read this illustrated in the japanese zen martial art classical book " the unflater mind" (sp)? or Immovable wisdom.



    Is it that difficult to get start doing it? NOPE. it is just do one decide to do it or not.

    a real life experience we all have on the LET GO LET GOD is driving a car. Do you fixed anything when you are in driving? do you have to do it in the WC way or MMA way? or just drive.

    Certainly one needs to learn how to handle the automobile. but what is driving? Flow, let go let God isnt it?

    Finally, In order to LET GO LET GOD, one needs to be in prayer or silence, one cannot LOOPING in one's speculation. one get oneself into Accident if one is blinding by one's LOOPING mind while driving . that is because one cause oneself to LOST consious/ Awareness unknowingly.

    Thus, One needs to quiet one's mind (get into silence) then Let Go Let God. If you want to know what is silence or quiet mind. Sit quietly and doing a recitation or prayer for 10 mins, you know that state because that is a nature for all of us living being.



    4, Mind and Body are no different. Both have to follow the LET GO LET GOD law.

    If one practice the Come Accept.... principle then they need to practice it with thier mind and body.


    There is no such thing as the body is flowing while the mind is stuck.
    Nope, mind and body are one.

    if one keep thinking about ROOT and FIX and Sustain and control and Resistance, the body will do what the mind thinking.


    Similarly, if one think one have to be "This and That or a master or a figther" that is fixing one's mind and that create suffering/ stuckness/ struggle/ resistance/ drain/ opposition in life. That is a trap most done to oneself.

    IE:
    I FIX myself as a sifu, and thus you need to respect me. and thus, I cannot lost face. and thus I have to be right everytime.

    TAN SAU is WC that is the highest advance art.....etc. and when you are so delude with your own fix thoughts running around and around some might kick you and some might take you down. That FIXED make you lost in your own "FIX thinking loop" = stuck = struggle = suffering


    5, By practice the teaching of the Kuen Kuit "comes accept, goes return....." that is the same with practice LET GO LET GOD at every intstant. THERE one transform one's mind/body 24/7/365. and your living and your kung fu will certainly improve.


    One resolve one's ego, one's depression, one's bad habit of the mind and body that way. There is only one practice --- called it Let Go Let God or Comes accept, goes return, or immovable wisdom......

    Next time when you get trap into your FIX --- Desire, angle , hate, gong ho, ego... ask yourself, are you going to get stuck until you explode/drain your energy or you just make a decision to let the FIX Go. Same thing when the physical is stucked. you want to keep pushing it smashing it or similar to the water let it go and flow around it effortlessly?



    6, Loving Kindness is much superior then hate and anger. Why? examine your body, when you are in the Loving Kindness/flow state or the hate, anger/ stuck state, which one drain energy? which one give you energy?


    Loving kindness said nothing on not having advance and superior art. but a state of grace.
    not having advance art is a matter of capability, it is independent of Loving kindness.

    How is one going to be effective and efficient if that HATE and ANGER fill your body and drain your energy because you need so much energy to fix it there for what ever reason and to drain that energy for what ever reason.

    Why not in Loving Kindness and peace and solve the issue with whatever it takes instead of draining oneself before one does anything to the issue.



    So, what is internal Kung fu? that is keep the mind and body on watch 24/7/365 and use the mind/body for its best result. Shen, Qi, Jing are just three components describing the subtle of mind/body operation in the Chinese way.



    7, Iron palm is great to strengtern one's arm, Iron vest is great to strengthern one's body and internal organs; WCK inch power is great way to summon power as one likes it.


    However, think about it. How much hatre will be generate if one's body got damage by Iron palm strike of others? how much hatre will be generate if one's Iron vest got broken by deep penetration Jin? How much hatre will be generated bein hit by the inch power?


    and if those hatre generated, revenge will be certain. how long do one like to get stuck into this? one generation? two generation? three generation? read the Chinese TCMA history, always there is someone come back for revenge.

    I have heard that Even Dr. Leong Jan died because of the revenge of a young man because Leong Jan accidentally kill his father. Well, his son comes back and Leong let the young man has his way because he knows that is the only way to stop the hatre.





    Finally,

    You see, WCK is good the Kuen kuit is deep and good. It teaches us to liberate and set free and have a great living with a great kung fu.

    as the kuen kuit said " let go and thrust forward" you cant thrust forward if you dont let go. you cant flow if you are fixed. You body cant flow if your mind is stuck. you mind cant flow if your body is rigidly fixed.


    Since how you live is who you are.


    Examine those sifus and late sifus and grandmasters.... see are they live in joy and success? or they live in struggle and pain and fear. Do you want to live that way?

    Take Bruce Lee, he has advance art but how does he lives?


    Your life you make your choice.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 03-24-2009 at 01:11 PM.

  6. #51

    A suggestion:

    Thus, FIXED means stuck. One can read this illustrated in the japanese zen martial art classical book " the unflater mind" (sp)? or Immovable wisdom.(Hendrik)

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "The Unfettered Mind"


    joy chaudhuri

  7. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch View Post
    What's your purpose in quoting the whole of a long post and not asking anything relevant?
    Some just incapable to comprehend.
    Thus, patient, compassionate and loving kindness is needed.

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Behind you!
    Posts
    6,163
    Interesting again Hendrik, thanks.

    The Let Go Let God way of putting things is a big no-no to me: it just smacks too much of Christianity (not my cup of tea) but I understand and appreciate the idea (as a very much lay Buddhist!). I'm sure my re-starting yoga has helped my wing chun and not just in terms of flexibility and relaxation, but in attitude and as you say 'flow'.

    So, as usual, plenty to digest in your post.

    I did ask some specific questions mind though, so if you have time (and deem them worthy of answering! )...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik
    Some just incapable to comprehend.
    Thus, patient, compassionate and loving kindness is needed.
    Dagnabbit! And sarcasm, condescension and ridicule are usually my first resort... well, to be fair I do try to manifest my patience, compassion and loving kindness through sarcasm, condescension and ridicule - I like to think it's tough love!
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  9. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
    Thus, FIXED means stuck. One can read this illustrated in the japanese zen martial art classical book " the unflater mind" (sp)? or Immovable wisdom.(Hendrik)

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "The Unfettered Mind"


    joy chaudhuri

    Joy,

    Thanks 1000X!

    Best Regards



    The link for the book.

    The Unfettered Mind: Writings from a Zen Master to a Master Swordsman

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/4770...pt#reader-link


    worthed to check it out in Amazon.com, even the first few pages of the sample tell alots.... in good english.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 03-24-2009 at 06:01 PM.

  10. #55
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    St.Louis Missouri
    Posts
    2,175

    Kuen Kuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch View Post
    Yes, you can. But there is no root in the kuen kuit.

    What about Fajin? Does the Kuen Kuit mention Fajin?

    Does The Kuen Kuit mention Side Kick?

    Does the Kuen Kuit mention Chin Na?

    Does the Kuen Kuit mention Take Downs?


    If it doesn't then does that mean True WC doesn't have Sidekicks,Qinna,Take Downs. Does this mean WC doesn't have Fajin?

    Other things not mention in Kuen Kuit?

    Hanging Horse?

    Forward advancing stance?

    Tok Sau and Tie Sau?

    What about Kau Sau?

  11. #56
    The Let Go Let God way of putting things is a big no-no to me: it just smacks too much of Christianity (not my cup of tea) but I understand and appreciate the idea (as a very much lay Buddhist!). ----


    As soon as you get the idea that is what count.





    I'm sure my re-starting yoga has helped my wing chun and not just in terms of flexibility and relaxation, but in attitude and as you say 'flow'. ----


    That is the idea. Flow. The issue is to deal with mind, in the Ancient Chinese Zen koan, This mind of us is analogy to the son who steal our home's treasure. it is difficult to catch....



    So, as usual, plenty to digest in your post. ----

    Hope that what I post is usefull.






    I did ask some specific questions mind though, so if you have time (and deem them worthy of answering! )... ----

    I always enjoy discussing questions eventhought I dont have all the answer. So bring it up if you like. I tell you what I know.




    Dagnabbit! And sarcasm, condescension and ridicule are usually my first resort... well, to be fair I do try to manifest my patience, compassion and loving kindness through sarcasm, condescension and ridicule - I like to think it's tough love! --------


    Honestly, this is where I watch my mind and make that decision, to love and flow or to stuck and expecting attack and counter attack.
    My late teacher told me to watch over these small stuffs that is the way to progress. if I cant switch now, I would not be able to switch at confrontation.

    as my sifu told me, dont try Just Switch similar to switching TV channel, you are the master.

    Well, because I want to know what is silence so much that my late sifu get me into these. hahaha,, not everyone's cup of tea.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 03-24-2009 at 06:12 PM.

  12. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    What about Fajin? Does the Kuen Kuit mention Fajin?

    Does The Kuen Kuit mention Side Kick?

    Does the Kuen Kuit mention Chin Na?

    Does the Kuen Kuit mention Take Downs?


    If it doesn't then does that mean True WC doesn't have Sidekicks,Qinna,Take Downs. Does this mean WC doesn't have Fajin?

    Other things not mention in Kuen Kuit?

    Hanging Horse?

    Forward advancing stance?

    Tok Sau and Tie Sau?

    What about Kau Sau?



    Fan Jin?

    Suk Lat Taan Dong or shring, Release, bounce and vibrating .

    hahaha, Again, no ROOT.


    Now, how do you Fajin? or should I ask what is Jin? and How To Fa?

  13. #58
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    St.Louis Missouri
    Posts
    2,175
    Fajin is apart of Tai Chi


    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Fan Jin?

    Suk Lat Taan Dong or shring, Release, bounce and vibrating .

    hahaha, Again, no ROOT.


    Now, how do you Fajin? or should I ask what is Jin? and How To Fa?

  14. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    Fajin is apart of Tai Chi
    I ask you what is FaJin, what is Jin and How to Fa?

    if you dont know said it.

    if you know, tell us what is Fajin? What is Jin and How to Fa?

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    St.Louis Missouri
    Posts
    2,175

    Fajin

    Fa=Explode

    Jin=Power

    Fajin uses the muscle tendons or body sinews to exert explosive force rather than mere arm strenght muscular power.

    Fajin well Its from Tai Chi wouldnt you agree?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxxebP0u31g

    IMHO: The Way Fajin issuing force is emitted by way of feet from ground to the legs to the waist up the back through the shoulders spiraling out of arms emitting from the fist. Thus you have emittance of force issuance.

    Thats all I know please include more:

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •