Wing Chun and The root

[Hendrik]

I understand your post...but to me you tend to ramble on with alot unneeded info. Alot of what you say is either useless information or off topic info. An sometimes you just draw out your explanation instead of getting to the point.

A wise saying is to make your words few and brief. No need to have long winded explanation.

So in other words keep your words simple and concise. No need to write a thesis all the time. Just simply make your point. I understand because I too use to have the same problem until I learn how to speak and write in common vernacular so others can understand. Maybe take a college class on speech giving and writing.

Even Barak Obama's speeches are more concise and simple than yours an he is the president of the united states...You might take note of that.

You certainly are absolutely correct with your mind set.

The shell of eggs or the skin of apple is useless too for some.

[Genetic]

Sure you are absolutely right. In that case, you dont even have to learn WCK either right?

Tonight I found her in the kitchen, fridge door open, milk bottle lid off, with a bowl of cerial overfilled with milk, and milk all over the floor. No spoon though, and the floor was a mess, but not bad for 18 months.

How did she do it? By watching, absorbing and imitating. Not through over analysis or intellectual interpretation. More simply she learned through watching her brothers making their breakfast every morning.

As to your (rhetorical because you think you have won some kind of argument already) question, yes you have to learn WCK. You especially have to learn WCK because it goes against natural reactions and instincts. e.g. Tension.

You just dont need to overanalyse, and attribute its workings to mystical ancient conceptual understandings of the workings of the world.

You could just learn it from watching, absorbing, imitating, and through the experience of taking part.

[Hardwork108]

Tonight I found her in the kitchen, fridge door open, milk bottle lid off, with a bowl of cerial overfilled with milk, and milk all over the floor. No spoon though, and the floor was a mess, but not bad for 18 months.

How did she do it? By watching, absorbing and imitating. Not through over analysis or intellectual interpretation. More simply she learned through watching her brothers making their breakfast every morning.

As to your (rhetorical because you think you have won some kind of argument already) question, yes you have to learn WCK. You especially have to learn WCK because it goes against natural reactions and instincts. e.g. Tension.

You just dont need to overanalyse, and attribute its workings to mystical ancient conceptual understandings of the workings of the world.

You could just learn it from watching, absorbing, imitating, and through the experience of taking part.

I believe that Hendrik is referring to the CORRECT understanding of Wing Chun principles.

[Genetic]

I believe that Hendrik is referring to the CORRECT understanding of Wing Chun principles.

So presumably you dont think you could learn Correct wing chun principles through watching, absorbing and imitating?

Presumably you have to understand chi and chi meridians etc to be able to perform Correct wing chun?

What do you think are the correct wing chun principles that you cannot learn without overintellectualising and viewing through the concepts and ideas of an ancient and as yet totally unfabricated 'science'?

[Hardwork108]

So presumably you dont think you could learn Correct wing chun principles through watching, absorbing and imitating?

Just watching and imitating are not enough. Of course, you can learn up to a point but not beyond. It is like watching a doctor operating on a patient but if you don't understand the meaning of what he is doing then you may kill someone if you attempt to do the same.

Presumably you have to understand chi and chi meridians etc to be able to perform Correct wing chun?

Yes, that is, for higher level Wing Chun performance.

What do you think are the correct wing chun principles that you cannot learn without overintellectualising and viewing through the concepts and ideas of an ancient and as yet totally unfabricated 'science'?

Well you can watch principles like "accepting force" and "following force out" with a "silent mind" many many times but if someone doesn't tell you about them and what they mean then you will not get the full benefits. Of course, those who learn by just watching and copying will get somewhere and will not necessarily know that they are missing something, however, they will not even get half of the "story".

Let me give you an example. If a little kid watches the Simpsons then he will be impressed by the slap stick side of the show. An adult, who would be well versed in the "principles" of life will see the show in a different light (adult humor, political satire and so on).

[Genetic]

Im not so sure.
Actually, I am, and I disagree.

But I think we share an appreication of the Simpons. Even if it is only itchy and scratch that I am fond of. In your mind.

[Hardwork108]

Im not so sure.
Actually, I am, and I disagree.

But I think we share an appreication of the Simpons. Even if it is only itchy and scratch that I am fond of. In your mind.

I took the time to explain to you why you could not just learn kung fu by merely watching and immitating. The ball is in your court. You can use the info or discard it. It seems that you have taken the latter option so I am "looking forward" to another poster's clueless remarks regarding kung fu training aspects such as the forms, internals, Chi sao, Iron Palm and so on.

[Yoshiyahu]

Part of your Wing Chun training is merely watching...correct...

You have to watch your Sifu perform SLT to learn how to do it.

An then you practice it.

But step three is refinement.


Your Sifu fine tunes your form. Parts you may have overlooked or couldn't see or comprehend he reveals to you thus rescoping your structure allowing you perform SLT accurately.


But seeing and watching and imitating is only the first part...

The third part is actual combat. Testing your WC...

Tonight I found her in the kitchen, fridge door open, milk bottle lid off, with a bowl of cerial overfilled with milk, and milk all over the floor. No spoon though, and the floor was a mess, but not bad for 18 months.

How did she do it? By watching, absorbing and imitating. Not through over analysis or intellectual interpretation. More simply she learned through watching her brothers making their breakfast every morning.

As to your (rhetorical because you think you have won some kind of argument already) question, yes you have to learn WCK. You especially have to learn WCK because it goes against natural reactions and instincts. e.g. Tension.

You just dont need to overanalyse, and attribute its workings to mystical ancient conceptual understandings of the workings of the world.

You could just learn it from watching, absorbing, imitating, and through the experience of taking part.

[Genetic]

I took the time to explain to you why you could not just learn kung fu by merely watching and immitating. The ball is in your court. You can use the info or discard it. It seems that you have taken the latter option so I am "looking forward" to another poster's clueless remarks regarding kung fu training aspects such as the forms, internals, Chi sao, Iron Palm and so on.

Thanks we just have radically different views, it doenst need to be so personal.

When I was younger I used to study psychology, but dropped it because people were too tied up with the subject, and used to take criticism of ideas too personally. Everyone had their own take, many justifying themselves or others even using their concepts as a crutch. As such to me it was worse than religion, and about as scientific. So I ditched it.

I dont believe in Chi. And i dont think that means you cannot develop great wing chun. The latter I know to be true.

[Yoshiyahu]

You dont have to believe in Chi to develop it...

Cultivation of Chi comes by doing not knowing...

Thanks we just have radically different views, it doenst need to be so personal.

When I was younger I used to study psychology, but dropped it because people were too tied up with the subject, and used to take criticism of ideas too personally. Everyone had their own take, many justifying themselves or others even using their concepts as a crutch. As such to me it was worse than religion, and about as scientific. So I ditched it.

I dont believe in Chi. And i dont think that means you cannot develop great wing chun. The latter I know to be true.

[Hendrik]

han religion, and about as scientific. So I ditched it.

I dont believe in Chi. .

Chi is not a believe.
Chi is an energy flow which direct at will.

[Hendrik]

Cultivation of Chi comes by doing not knowing...

is that the fact?
Who have you learn cultivate chi from?

[m1k3]

So it is only possible to learn correct kung fu by being taught by an instructor, who learned from an instructor...and so on.

But I have a simple question, who did the first instructor learn from?

If you meet the Buddha on the path to nirvana, kill him.

[t_niehoff]

So it is only possible to learn correct kung fu by being taught by an instructor, who learned from an instructor...and so on.

But I have a simple question, who did the first instructor learn from?

If you meet the Buddha on the path to nirvana, kill him.

Very insightful post.

I too think that "transmission view" that TMAists's often have is flawed. They see WCK as some sort of body of knowledge, The Secret Book, and believe that you can only get the "real wing chun" or "correct kung fu" through someone that has The Secret Book. And they measure their worth by how close they are to the holder of The Secret Book( the grandmaster).

But that view begs the question of even if you know someone's lineage, how can you know if they have genuine skill or knowledge? Assuming, for example, that Rickson is the best BJJ guy on the planet and I study from Rickson, how can we know whether I "got it" or not, that I have great skill in BJJ? The same applies to any martial art.

[Hendrik]

So it is only possible to learn correct kung fu by being taught by an instructor, who learned from an instructor...and so on.

But I have a simple question, who did the first instructor learn from?

If you meet the Buddha on the path to nirvana, kill him.

To learn calculus correctly one needs to learn from some one who knows calculus.

BTW. your qoute about Buddha is in proper, even those who see's thier original face needs the mind seal syncronization to align what they attain is what it is.