Glorified Kickboxer

[couch]

Very good everyone. This simple question could turn into a good discussion.

So we could say, in summary:

1. Distance/position determines the tools to be used
2. Ruleset also determines the tools to be used

So a WC man who fights at a specific range (no different than a TKD'er trying to keep me at HIS/HER range) might resort to 'boxing/kickboxing' in fight/sparring match for a few reasons:
1. They are starting at a longer range to begin with and b/c of all the champion Chi Sau played, this 'extended range' isn't covered
2. They are scared. When the ish hits the fan, it's easier to NOT play the 'in your personal space' range.
3. (insert other personal opinions here)

Best.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Have you ever seen a clip of a WC guy fighting full contact that looks like a typical WC demo?

[t_niehoff]

Very good everyone. This simple question could turn into a good discussion.

So we could say, in summary:

1. Distance/position determines the tools to be used
2. Ruleset also determines the tools to be used

I think to just talk about tools ignores the "WHY" -- which is that when we are highly stressed/pressured and NEED to move at 100% (power/speed) our bodies are going to move in certain ways. It's like lifting a weight. If the weight is not too heavy, you can do it in all kinds of ways. You can "train" those ways using light weights. But when you go to lifit a weight close to your limit, you will find those ways won't work and that your body will need to lift it a certain way (the way powerlifters do -- why do powerlifters lift that way? becasue they have found from actually lifting weights at their max what works).

The ruleset typically determines the "range" -- boxing's rules don't permit clinch or ground.

So a WC man who fights at a specific range (no different than a TKD'er trying to keep me at HIS/HER range) might resort to 'boxing/kickboxing' in fight/sparring match for a few reasons:
1. They are starting at a longer range to begin with and b/c of all the champion Chi Sau played, this 'extended range' isn't covered
2. They are scared. When the ish hits the fan, it's easier to NOT play the 'in your personal space' range.
3. (insert other personal opinions here)

Best.

Or, they just haven't trained to use their WCK tools in fighting.

[lkfmdc]

Have you ever seen a clip of a WC guy fighting full contact that looks like a typical WC demo?

funny how no one ever answers that question directly....

[sanjuro_ronin]

funny how no one ever answers that question directly....

There are 100's of clips of WC demos....

[Wayfaring]

The consequences of this I think extremely important. If you start with the fight -- what it is really going to be like and how you are really going to NEED to move, then you will realize that if you fight on the outside it will end up "looking" like kickboxing. So, if you want to fight on the outside, doesn't it make sense to train like you will endup fighting? In other words, to practice some form of kickboxing if you want to fight on the outside.

There's another angle to this as well. Even if I don't want to fight on the outside, in a live situation I may not have a choice. Even if I don't want to fight on the ground, the same is true.

Many times in a live environment the ability to dictate the terms of a fight, or the ability to move a fight into one area or another at will be dependant upon things like being well rounded, conditioning levels, and what types of opponents you train against.

[couch]

Have you ever seen a clip of a WC guy fighting full contact that looks like a typical WC demo?

Right. It never looks like a demo.

But my big beef is such: why doesn't it? Why doesn't it look like something someone spends a huge hunk of time in?

I could pull the 'but it's not the real Wing Chun' card, right? LOL

But my point of contention is: it should. Some of the shapes should be there. The concept of controlling an opponents centre, protecting one's own centre, and the range we play should be where we get stuff done should be there.

If it isn't, then people aren't doing the right things to make their Wing Chun work. Maybe us that pressure test/spar/etc should just bite the bullet on the fact that most people that do the demo's for WC don't pressure test/spar/etc and they are a poor representation of the fighting ability of the art.

Heck, check this out: http://tinyurl.com/cnznff Ip Ching is saying that Wing Chun shouldn't be used for fighting...only for health!

[lkfmdc]

There are 100's of clips of WC demos....

Yet I've never seen a clip of a real fight that looks like those demos....

[sanjuro_ronin]

Right. It never looks like a demo.

But my big beef is such: why doesn't it? Why doesn't it look like something someone spends a huge hunk of time in?

I could pull the 'but it's not the real Wing Chun' card, right? LOL

But my point of contention is: it should. Some of the shapes should be there. The concept of controlling an opponents centre, protecting one's own centre, and the range we play should be where we get stuff done should be there.

Other systems look the same in a demo as they do in a real fight, although not picture-perfect, they nevertheless look "the same".
AT the very least, the PERSON doing the demo looks and moves the same in a fight as in the demo, to the degree that one CAN look the same.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yet I've never seen a clip of a real fight that looks like those demos....

...which begs the question, why?...

[dnovice]

The question what would constitute a fight looking like a wc demo?
Does every single move have to be out of the wc arsenal?
Is it WC if some techs are visible?
If some, how much wc to non wc?

First you have to define what WC is in your opinion before we can even go further in deciding what looks like WC and what doesnt.

Sanjuro, Ikfmdc, couch etc? what are your opinions??

cheers

[sanjuro_ronin]

The question what would constitute a fight looking like a wc demo?
Does every single move have to be out of the wc arsenal?
Is it WC if some techs are visible?
If some, how much wc to non wc?

First you have to define what WC is in your opinion before we can even go further in deciding what looks like WC and what doesnt.

Sanjuro, Ikfmdc, couch etc? what are your opinions??

cheers

Its not that complicated, really.
Look at a demo of Muay Thai, there are many on youtube, then look at a MT fight.
Same thing for BJJ, or kyokushin.
Heck, look at a demo of CLF or Hung Ga and see how they fight full contact.
Then do the same with WC.

[dnovice]

Its not that complicated, really.
Look at a demo of Muay Thai, there are many on youtube, then look at a MT fight.
Same thing for BJJ, or kyokushin.
Heck, look at a demo of CLF or Hung Ga and see how they fight full contact.
Then do the same with WC.

Yes but then we are being vague, and that leaves it to subjective interpretation. What i consider wc is different from what you consider wc? no argument because the ambiguity permits it.

Personally, I know what i think. I want to know your opinion to see where u are coming from...

[t_niehoff]

There's another angle to this as well. Even if I don't want to fight on the outside, in a live situation I may not have a choice. Even if I don't want to fight on the ground, the same is true.

Many times in a live environment the ability to dictate the terms of a fight, or the ability to move a fight into one area or another at will be dependant upon things like being well rounded, conditioning levels, and what types of opponents you train against.

I agree with you.

[t_niehoff]

Other systems look the same in a demo as they do in a real fight, although not picture-perfect, they nevertheless look "the same".
AT the very least, the PERSON doing the demo looks and moves the same in a fight as in the demo, to the degree that one CAN look the same.

The reason for this is simple: that those other (functional) methods fight as the core of their training. Since they fight, and have through that fighting worked out how to make their tools work for them in fighting, they can then demo those things in a nonfighting situation, showing examples of what they do WHEN they actually fight. Contrast that with people who don't fight as the core of their training, but spend the majority of their "training" performing unrealistic exercises like chi sao or san sao. When asked to demo, they can't demo what they are doing in fighting since they aren't really fighting. So they demo things that they believe should work based on their "theory" and/or unrealistic practice. Their demos instead of reflecting what they do in fighting reflect what they do in their unrealistic exercises (which is all they know).