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Thread: Glorified Kickboxer

  1. #31
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    Arrow

    lol. apparently the questions i asked were to difficult. Ok to simplfy. Do these clips look like wing chun? Say why they do and don't?

    clip one
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rd4dT...eature=related

    clip two
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfLq__054Qk

    Next, use the same rules you applied to the above two to say whether royce gracie is using bjj.

    clip one
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heZ7m...eature=related

    cheers

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnovice View Post
    The question what would constitute a fight looking like a wc demo?
    Does every single move have to be out of the wc arsenal?
    Is it WC if some techs are visible?
    If some, how much wc to non wc?

    First you have to define what WC is in your opinion before we can even go further in deciding what looks like WC and what doesnt.

    Sanjuro, Ikfmdc, couch etc? what are your opinions??

    cheers
    Hard to say. IMO, it has to look like I train. If it doesn't, I'm wasting my time.
    Since there is a lot of good WC and a lot of bad WC, the answer is up to the eye of the beholder, no?
    “An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.” – Friedrich Engels

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnovice View Post
    lol. apparently the questions i asked were to difficult. Ok to simplfy. Do these clips look like wing chun? Say why they do and don't?

    clip one
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rd4dT...eature=related

    clip two
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfLq__054Qk

    Next, use the same rules you applied to the above two to say whether royce gracie is using bjj.

    clip one
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heZ7m...eature=related

    cheers
    Not sure what question you are referring to...
    As for the clips you posted.
    The second tend to LOOK like what one thinks WC "should" look like, but it looks more like a demo than an actual match.
    The first one is typical of full contact matches with minimal gear and you can see them trying to apply some WC in the begining.
    The clip of Royce Gracie is the 10th of 10 clips, not sure what you are asking....
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by dnovice View Post
    Elbows and knees from a double neck tie? Ground and pound from top positions? I can show you footage exactly like that from hundreds of gyms that HAVE NEVER DONE A SINGLE DAY OF WING CHUN IN THEIR LIVES

    Quote Originally Posted by dnovice View Post
    Throwing straight punches with no defense = wing chun?
    ok, if you say so
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  5. #35
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    Here you can see the WC guy trying to apply his WC:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBjRv...eature=related
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Not sure what question you are referring to...
    As for the clips you posted.
    The second tend to LOOK like what one thinks WC "should" look like, but it looks more like a demo than an actual match.
    The first one is typical of full contact matches with minimal gear and you can see them trying to apply some WC in the begining.
    The clip of Royce Gracie is the 10th of 10 clips, not sure what you are asking....
    you're right. its the 10th clip but posting them all would take up too much space and be redundant. My question is does it look like Royce is doing BJJ? and vice versa for the the clips (are they doing wc)?

    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    Elbows and knees from a double neck tie? Ground and pound from top positions? I can show you footage exactly like that from hundreds of gyms that HAVE NEVER DONE A SINGLE DAY OF WING CHUN IN THEIR LIVES
    See this is why its important to define what you mean by an art being the same as its demo. You are saying here that as long as a move that doesn't belong in the arts arsenal is used the art is not itself. For example the clip is not WC because he is pounding the guy on the floor...

    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    Throwing straight punches with no defense = wing chun?
    ok, if you say so
    lol. I think both clips are wing chun. But you don't, because we have different definitions of what wing chun would look like.

    Now according to your definition, your very strict definition Royce Gracie is not using BJJ because he is throwing crescent kicks, round house kicks etc. Right?? This is base on your definition not mine. I think its BJJ.


    Quote Originally Posted by couch View Post
    Hard to say. IMO, it has to look like I train. If it doesn't, I'm wasting my time.
    Since there is a lot of good WC and a lot of bad WC, the answer is up to the eye of the beholder, no?
    It can't look exactly like you trained because you are in a controlled environment. However, you should see elements of wing chun in there like chain punching, immense pressure in attacking, centerline coverage...

  7. #37
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    He is Right

    You are actually right...i haven't seen clips of Hung Ga sparring. Can you post some please...But I have seen some WC and Choy Li Fu sparring.

    An when they put on the gloves they look like either MMA fighters or Glorified Kick Boxers...

    I would love to disagree but I can not disagree.

    I feel most schools do not focus on using your WC with gloves. In other words all the different techniques has to be altered. To be used in gloves. In my opinion one should practice realistic drills with the gloves and gear on. In other words. Instead of doing weak arm deflections against weak punches. Someone should really throw a punch at the other guy face. An the other guy blocks it. With what ever technique he is practing. This should be drilled with gloves on everyday to gain proficeincy. An when sparring one person should concentrate strickly on WC techniques an the other concentrate on doing what ever works. The problem is when people spar mostly they are trying to win. Instead of learn how to fight with the technique. So they simply punch and move and punch and move.Kick and move. They don't use the steps or hand techniques.

    Realistically one can use
    Pak Sau
    Bil Sau
    Man Sau
    Gan San
    Lan Sau
    Bong Sau
    Gum Sau
    Lop Sau
    Huen Sau
    Lau Sao

    With the gloves on. But you practice it and spar with it over and over again. Drilling works if you drill hard. I mean it aint nothing wrong with doing a drill slow at first. But if your wearing gloves,headgear and face shield with mouth piece why not do the drill with full force. I mean you got protection. Hit the face if you can. Then spar freestyle. But you may not agree with my opinions. I saw some choy li fu fights. Theyrarely successfully use the long swinging punches of Choy Li Fut. The only place where you can see CLF or WC use the correct way its suppose to be is in Jackie Chan movie. Lol....But I understand why some choose not to use it in sparring but they are cheating themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Its not that complicated, really.
    Look at a demo of Muay Thai, there are many on youtube, then look at a MT fight.
    Same thing for BJJ, or kyokushin.
    Heck, look at a demo of CLF or Hung Ga and see how they fight full contact.
    Then do the same with WC.


    dnovice I hate to agree with sanjuro but he is right...The most WC techs you will ever see is a chain punch and front kick. No leg checks,no leg sweeps,no throws,no hand deflections from sil lim tao or chum kiu. You see mostly Chain punch,Front kick and occasionaly a shoot to take down. I understand in Karate Tournments and Tae kwon Do tournements those things are illegal. But WC do they really have sparring Tournments thats open to all styles to compete? Or do they just isolated Chi Sau tournments for those who practice chi sau? I think WC needs to fight other styles more. Just my opinion. I also think they should have tournments where many WC techniques are allowed. Such as throwing, Sweeping, Stop Kicks, Leg Check along with chain punching the face and applying grabs and hand techniques. An other non-deadly techniques should be allowed along with any I forgot about. As well as allowing other styles to use their non-lethal techniques.

    check out these clips

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id-UIcxMJNQ


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDnm0YiNfcA
    (Is this really sparring)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX1scWT_EaU
    (Looks Like Kickboxing to me)





    Some of the better clips of WC sparring:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ3-H...eature=related
    (This guy is chain punching a little)


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Glv1xm8Vk8g
    (Pretty good WC guy in my opinion)


    Choy Li Fut is just doing Kick boxing:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcH0FC4Xihk


    This guy only does Chi Sau now. But I head back in the old days he was a great fighter. I would love to see clips of him fighting with gloves on to see if he uses the same techniques as he does with Chi Sau.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-232D...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ui6r...eature=related

    Chi Sau is great for building sensitivity. But its not real fighting. When you have an opponent throwing power into his punches and kicks and he is evading an not bridging or dissolving your attempt to bridge then you have to be able to react and adapt. Plus everyone is not going to just strike and kick your torso. Sometimes they aimed for the legs, sweeps, throws, kicks to head, elbows, knees, close line, take downs etc. So in sparring one should train WC to be compatible with all these techniques.


    Quote Originally Posted by dnovice View Post
    The question what would constitute a fight looking like a wc demo?
    Does every single move have to be out of the wc arsenal?
    Is it WC if some techs are visible?
    If some, how much wc to non wc?

    First you have to define what WC is in your opinion before we can even go further in deciding what looks like WC and what doesnt.

    Sanjuro, Ikfmdc, couch etc? what are your opinions??

    cheers
    Last edited by Yoshiyahu; 03-19-2009 at 11:09 AM.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by dnovice View Post

    lol. I think both clips are wing chun.
    But then, don't you realize, your definition of "wing chun" becomes meaningless?

    They throw some punches, the clinch up, the throw some elbows, they throw some knees

    If guys who have never done a single minute of Wing Chun fight EXACTLY THE SAME WAY, then what does "wing chun" mean?

    Has nothing to do with "my defnition", it has to do with reality....
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  9. #39
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    Yoshiyahu,
    I think you may have missed or misunderstood some of my points.
    Hung Gar and CLF spar the same as they demo.

    The moment you put on gloves you are gonna "box" because boxing is basically the best way to hit with gloves on.

    CLF actually is one of the systems that tend to look the same when they fight as when they train.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    But then, don't you realize, your definition of "wing chun" becomes meaningless?

    They throw some punches, the clinch up, the throw some elbows, they throw some knees

    If guys who have never done a single minute of Wing Chun fight EXACTLY THE SAME WAY, then what does "wing chun" mean?

    Has nothing to do with "my defnition", it has to do with reality....
    lol. Your definition is apparently the definition of the world. lol. Jokes aside. You never said whether you thought the BJJ clip is actually BJJ...

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnovice View Post
    lol. Your definition is apparently the definition of the world. lol. Jokes aside. You never said whether you thought the BJJ clip is actually BJJ...
    Its pretty hard to figure out what Royce was doing, LOL !!
    Its hard to play your game when a better fighter takes you out of it, like what happend to Royce
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by dnovice View Post
    lol. Your definition is apparently the definition of the world. lol. Jokes aside. You never said whether you thought the BJJ clip is actually BJJ...
    Do BJJ guys use BJJ? Of course they do, when teh fight hits the mat they go for position, isolate position and apply techniques. Teh same arm bars, chokes and sweep you see in class every day you see in the matches... you can't argue that... I have no idea what you are arguing actually?

    In an MMA match, of course BJJ people need strikes and stand up wrestling. And if you have watched the evolution of MMA, you'l see that a lot of the "old curriculum" striking that BJJ had has been abandoned in favor of the same old punches, elbows, low kicks and wrestling EVERYONE USES

    IE "style" is a completely artificial distinction, there are no styles, there is only what works and what is crap. If you want to fight effectively, you practice what works and you forget the crap
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Its pretty hard to figure out what Royce was doing, LOL !!
    Its hard to play your game when a better fighter takes you out of it, like what happend to Royce
    Royce was trying to take the fight to the ground, we have examples in that fight of him pulling guard and trying to work submissions. Of course, most of the fight is him failing to do those things

    But, of course, we can put up HUNDREDS of clips of people doing BJJ in real fights, so a singel clip or clips is pretty meaningless
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    Do BJJ guys use BJJ? Of course they do, when teh fight hits the mat they go for position, isolate position and apply techniques. Teh same arm bars, chokes and sweep you see in class every day you see in the matches... you can't argue that... I have no idea what you are arguing actually?

    In an MMA match, of course BJJ people need strikes and stand up wrestling. And if you have watched the evolution of MMA, you'l see that a lot of the "old curriculum" striking that BJJ had has been abandoned in favor of the same old punches, elbows, low kicks and wrestling EVERYONE USES

    IE "style" is a completely artificial distinction, there are no styles, there is only what works and what is crap. If you want to fight effectively, you practice what works and you forget the crap
    I disagree with one thing, there are styles, but not like most think.
    There is MY style of doing WC or HK or Kyokushin and then there is YOUR style of doing Lama, doing CLF etc.
    People forget that styles were about how a certain teacher/fighter did HIS MA, not about THE MA in particular.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    Royce was trying to take the fight to the ground, we have examples in that fight of him pulling guard and trying to work submissions. Of course, most of the fight is him failing to do those things

    But, of course, we can put up HUNDREDS of clips of people doing BJJ in real fights, so a singel clip or clips is pretty meaningless
    Sakuraba was the better fighter that day, he fought his fight and didn't let Royce fight his.
    Funny how those things matter
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

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