Glorified Kickboxer

[lkfmdc]

I disagree with one thing, there are styles, but not like most think.
There is MY style of doing WC or HK or Kyokushin and then there is YOUR style of doing Lama, doing CLF etc.
People forget that styles were about how a certain teacher/fighter did HIS MA, not about THE MA in particular.

well, in my school, I taught everyone (mostly) and yet they all have different ways they move, different techniques they like, different strategies. If you want to call that a "style" fine, but in this context in this thread, it isn't what we are talking about

People who do, I don't know, let's call it "Possum Pai" who think that in a "real fight" the "authentic Possum Pai" guy is going to take his "subdoing the chipmonk posture" and use the signature "Possum plays dead" hand strike are missing the boat

[lkfmdc]

Sakuraba was the better fighter that day, he fought his fight and didn't let Royce fight his.
Funny how those things matter

crazy talk, just plain crazy talk

[dnovice]

Its pretty hard to figure out what Royce was doing, LOL !!
Its hard to play your game when a better fighter takes you out of it, like what happend to Royce

Very true. But in my opinion he was still trying to using BJJ, was using it, but it just wasn't working for him for a number of reasons: 1) he's fighting a better fighter, 2) the fighter isn't allowing him the time or space to do everything he can etc...

Do BJJ guys use BJJ? Of course they do, when teh fight hits the mat they go for position, isolate position and apply techniques. Teh same arm bars, chokes and sweep you see in class every day you see in the matches... you can't argue that... I have no idea what you are arguing actually?

I'm not making an argument, man. I just want people to look at clips with fair eyes, without bias. Basically, in a real fight a BJJ guy will apply some techniques from BJJ when appropriate and freestyle the rest. This is the definition i go by. As long as you utilize some moves from the art.

In an MMA match, of course BJJ people need strikes and stand up wrestling. And if you have watched the evolution of MMA, you'l see that a lot of the "old curriculum" striking that BJJ had has been abandoned in favor of the same old punches, elbows, low kicks and wrestling EVERYONE USES

Exactly. I agree. And this is the definition I'm applying to the WC clips. Ok, the guy can't use bong sao, tan sao etc... maybe he's not proficient enough but he threw chain punches, a wc front kick. He then bridged the gap and tried to control his opponent, albeit in a non WC way. But there is WC in the clip (to me.) This is neither right nor wrong, depending on who you ask.

I have studied science all my life. In science if you want to analyze something you have to give a definition to that thing. Without definitions you will be running around in circles not even knowing when you are contradicting yourself. This is why if one is going to analyze whether any art is itself in a fight one has to define what that constitutes.

Yoshi, as for all those other techniques which are not visible in the clips the answer is you use what you are good at using... And what you are good at using comes from what you trully practice in the right way.

cheers.

[couch]

It can't look exactly like you trained because you are in a controlled environment. However, you should see elements of wing chun in there like chain punching, immense pressure in attacking, centerline coverage...

Agreed, but it needs to look like more than chain punching. Where are all the things that are trained? Simultaneous attack and defense? Front and side kicks? Hand block hand/foot block foot?

And chain punching isn't for punching. It's for chaining your attacks and controls together. It's beginner stuff.

[t_niehoff]

And chain punching isn't for punching. It's for chaining your attacks and controls together. It's beginner stuff.

What! Heresy!

[dnovice]

People who do, I don't know, let's call it "Possum Pai" who think that in a "real fight" the "authentic Possum Pai" guy is going to take his "subdoing the chipmonk posture" and use the signature "Possum plays dead" hand strike are missing the boat

Haha. very true.

[taai gihk yahn]

the human body, for all it's variability in terms of movement quality and shape, is still limited in so far as when you engage in highly context specific activity, the options available to you quickly decrease; for example, if you've ever paddled a canoe for 8 hours a day, or chopped wood for 2 hours straight, or baled hay all morning (all things I've done, yes), you quickly realize that there are no shortcuts, secret techniques or esoteric ways to do this - the movement is bounded by the goal; with fighting, if your goal is to hit someone in vulnerable areas, or submit them via a choke or joint lock, your options become increasingly limited the closer you get to achieving that goal; as such, certain principles and their corresponding movements will be arrived at almost without one choosing it so - which is why, in culture after culture, you see things like wrestling, or use of the spear, sword, bow & arrow, and more recently firearm - the more specialized, the more efficient we become at something, the less variability there is - instead, you have increased skill at fewer things;

when you have a context where in one isn't showing much, where secrecy thrives, like TCMA, you can have "specialized" styles that "work" using weird sh1t, because of the unfamiliarity factor: if I throw the technique "weasel takes a three-day weekend" and no one has ever seen it before, good chance it will work; but once the cat's out of the bag, it's efficacy diminishes quickly; OTOH, a straight jab, which everyone knows about, still works after al these years because of economy of the motion; factor in timing, position, conditioning, reach, speed, etc. it works even better because the basic mechanics of the jab are enhanced by all of these things;

when you "mix" many styles, it's going to create a winnowing effect; we are in the midst of a world-wide evolution in MA, because for the first time, everyone is seeing what everyone else is doing, and many more people are willing to put it on the line to test what they do against conditioned, resisting opponents; also, scientific research has enhanced training methods to a point previously unknown; finally, a rational-based approach to "traditional" arts has found great value in many of these practices for contemporary usage, such as Ch'an principles applied to strength and conditioning training; certainly, some people still believe that there are "hidden" arts that they claim operate on a level far beyond what is "publicly available", and come up with a sophisticated set of rationalizations as to why these are inherently superior, usually referencing some "old masters" stories, or blowing their experience with skills such as rooting, listening / sticking, etc. way out of proportion in terms of their applicability across the board, but the reality is that, most people tend to fight a certain way because that's what really works;

the body is the body; a given "style" can operate on principles that it believes are universal, but for most of TCMA, these were developed within a rather limited context of fighting approaches, which were often informed more by Chines cultural conventions than anything else; to wit, there is plenty of historical documentation about what happened when Lama came to town, in terms of how it fared against "styles" that spent all their time doing short-hand bridge work: for all the sophistication involved in those skills, it all went out the window when the other person decided not to play that game; which just shows that you can spend your life trying to untie the Gordion knot, or just do what Alexander did...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Very well said dude,
I will add though that, there are some freaks in this world, people that do operate on a whole different level, be it via genetics or just by a mindset that the majority of pedestrians just can't grasp.
These people however are NOT the ones to focus on, simple because that are just that, freaks, and to think that what they can do is attainable by all, well, that is where lots of crap starts to happen.
best to focus on what the "typical" person can do within a given system and now what the "elite" can do, to get a better judgement of the system.
Your point about the whole "effectiveness of the unknown" is a very valid point too, something that still drives many TMA systems.

[clam61]

i train sum nung WC and we hop around. we dont bob and weave like kickboxers but we hop around. so did sum nung.

Correct, except for the fact that many of the Glorified Kickboxers here in this forum claim to be kung fu fighting while hopping around like boxers and or TKD-ists and using basic kickboxing techniques. Some have even gone further and implied that this was some kind of an "improved" kung fu...lol.

Well I got to give it to this forum, it really is full of laughs.

[taai gihk yahn]

i train sum nung WC and we hop around. we dont bob and weave like kickboxers but we hop around. so did sum nung.

many TCMA styles "hop around", that is, they train "hing gung" or lightness skill; you see this in the footwork utilized by certain styles, although not typically in the southern short hands; for example, the taiji form I learned has certain moves like this (I practice a older version of Yang style, before he took out all the jumps and low sweeps, etc.); you also see it in other northern styles;

[taai gihk yahn]

The hopping around of boxers and TKD-ists has nothing to do with Ligthtness Skills of kung fu.

that's a bit of an over-generalization; some aspects are the same, others are different

[anerlich]

But you have to realize that the Root is not taught in many MCDojos.

How do you know? Done a survey of McDojos in the St Louis area? I thought everyone there trained in secret underground fighting clubs.

Xingyi does have a number of forms in which something that could be described at hopping, the most notable of which is the Dragon, which goes from a very low stance, leaping in the air, and switching to the same low stance. Not something you want to spend your life doing if you have knee problems.

Excellent answer.

Nah.

[IronWeasel]

Hit Iron palm bag a thousand times a day (Break when your body tells you to)

I'm not sure that this is a good recommendation.

[Hardwork108]

that's a bit of an over-generalization; some aspects are the same, others are different

The aspects that are "different" make all the difference!

[Yoshiyahu]

Can you post a video of Xing Yi Form where the hop around like a boxer?


I would love to see what you are talking about...

Because a Boxer doesn't hop or jump in the air...he actually bounces around. But there are also flat foot boxers too. So it depends on the training. But Jumping rope consecutively for 20 minutes helps with the stamina needed to bounce like a boxer. If you can not jump rope at a steady pace than your hopping skills will be sad...

But please share the video of Xing Yi Quan where they stay on their toes and hop around or bounce?


I would love to see it?

How do you know? Done a survey of McDojos in the St Louis area? I thought everyone there trained in secret underground fighting clubs.

Xingyi does have a number of forms in which something that could be described at hopping, the most notable of which is the Dragon, which goes from a very low stance, leaping in the air, and switching to the same low stance. Not something you want to spend your life doing if you have knee problems.



Nah.

Clam61 Said:

i train sum nung WC and we hop around. we dont bob and weave like kickboxers but we hop around. so did sum nung.

Please show some footage of
Sum Nung
Kwok Wan Ping
Tom Wong
Joseph Chow

Hopping around? I would love to see if if you have it. Please show us how they hopp around.

Also after you do that show us a video of your hopping around or that of your class mates or sifu. As for me when I hop around too. But its not from the Wing Chun. I draw from Boxing and kick boxing to hop around. But I don't regularly hop around. I use it with certain types of people. An other I simply utilize my WC steps on the balls of the feet. Which gives you quick springy steps and movements. But not quite bouncing?


Please share some proof?

Here is a Yuen Kay San video...I don't see much hoping around like a kick boxer do you?


http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...+Kay+San&hl=en