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Thread: How to defeat a SKILLED knife fighter who's out for your a**?

  1. #16
    against an unskilled opponent, it's hard enough, especially as the opponent will often move unpredictably and attack you "wrong", LOL, but if you have been well-trained to deal with your own adrenaline response, you stand at least a chance if you use everything available to you (environmental layout, improvised weapons, etc.) in a tactically organized manner; and we have all seen video evidence of people stabbed multiple times by enraged, yet tactically disorganized assailants who have survived; so again, randomness seems to be the watchword - as a trained fighter, your goal is to limit that randomness and try to take as much control of the situation overall as possible

    now, take that tactical mindset and give it to your knife wielding opponent as well: well, you're basically fu(ked, because unlike the amateur knife wielding psycho, he'll go for target selection, and will set you up to get it (e.g. - distracting you with his empty hand with the knife as the hidden, follow-up attack); I guess that the answer is to carry your own blade (or similar ranged weapon such as a telescopic baton) and wear body armor at all times (or at least leather wrist bands, gloves and jacket - good leather can be effective turning a blade to varying degrees, at least more than a t-shirt); of course, this is if you live the kind of life where this sort of scenario is a concern to you - if it's not, the one advantage is that the chances of you randomly coming up against a trained knife fighter are probably pretty slim to none...

  2. #17
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    Hello,

    Anyone who trains with a knife in a realistic situation will have been cut and expect to be cut. No matter how skilled one is with empty hands or even with a blade, when facing someone else with a blade it is most likely both will be cut.

    If one is to survive an edged weapon encounter then one must accept that they will be cut. You must mentally prepare yourself for the fact your will be injured and be ready to fight on no matter what. For most the shock of being cut is what stops them, they are unprepared for seeing their own blood and fighting through the pain. Unfortunately, there are few options for preparing to fight after one has really been cut so it is impossible to predict how one will respond in a real situation. All one can do is train as best they can, but IMHO spend as much or more time on mental preparation and visualizing being cut and still fighting on no matter what.

    The video seen in many LE training classes is titled "Surviving Edged Weapons". It featured Dan Inosonto (sp?) as well as Tuhon Leo Gaje. What the video showed is that if a knife weilding attacker is within 21 feet it is highly unlikely that an officer will be able to draw and fire 2-3 times before he is cut. In some instances both the attacker and the officer will both be injured for real, but the point being that the knife weilder will most likely reach and strike the officer. The 21 feet is seen as the minimal safe distance for facing an attacker armed with an edged weapon which will allow the drawing and firing of a holstered weapon.

    On another note, slashes, while deadly, rarely result in death. The more dangerous is the stab, even if it does not appear to be bleeding much, as in many cases the bleeding is internal. Also, a small blade is all that is needed to penetrate to most vital targets, 3" is more than sufficient to kill.

    One technique which is particularily dangerous is commonly referred to P'Kal and involves catching the limb with the blade down. If this is successful then the opponent will further injure themselves if they attempt to pull away. Of course the one with the knife can also pull the blade towards themselves as well.

    A skilled knife fighter will be able to manuever the blade with a speed and flow akin to Chi Sau. If blocked they will redirect to another target.

    All in all better to avoid if at all possible. If not, expect to get cut and have to fight on. FWIW one technique taught to me in the military involved taking a cut\slash on the outside of the forearm in order to get close enough to deliver a killing blow. Not saying this is such a good idea, but it does stress the reality of being cut in a real fight.

    Oh, not to be picky, but the chances of coming up against a skilled knife fighter are pretty good, imho. Anyone who has been to prison or grown up on the streets will most likely be pretty proficient with using a blade.

    As I like to tell my students, when I used to teach, "I cheat". Rest assured that those you encounter on the street will also "cheat". It is highly probable that you will not even see the first strike but jus feel the results. If you are not ready for that mentally then you will most likely not survive. Also, even if you survive you may be maimed in some way.
    Last edited by Sihing73; 03-19-2009 at 05:23 PM.
    Peace,

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  3. #18
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    nice post sihin.

  4. #19
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    Good advice I have been given is train with the assumption that the attacker has a blade.

    Your empty hand skills should still help you...
    Only up to a, er, point.

    Many of the bread and butter WC defenses against empty hand attacks will get your forearms sliced to ribbons if the attacker has a knife. The knife guy would love you to try to bridge and stick to his knife arm.

    Sihing73's post was on the money.

    www.florofighting.com has some pretty good material regarding blades and their use and defense.
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  5. #20
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    a friend of mine had to deal with this situation once

    he could have got away, but pride got the better of him.

    it happened during a 'break' in fighting. this is one of the reasons why i think sparring is not the be-all-and-end-all. real fights break and come back together again - as such, IMHO practising entry drills can be almost as important as sparring.

    anyway....

    as there was no way on earth my friend was going to walk away, he took his tshirt off and wrapped it around his hand/forearm and used this to jab his way in and eventually got to the outside of the attacker and choked him RIGHT out. he had studied a bit of boxing and was a very good street fighter. he hailed from Afghanistan and to him knife encounters and fighting were an everyday thing that didnt phase him as much as it would us.

    in essence what im trying to say is that you need to use your environment, you need to be carefull and not let pride get in the way. you need to get used to defending a blade against random encounters - not set 1,2,3 drills in the classroom.

    i personally wouldn't have a clue iwhat to do until it actually happened - sometimes to spend time practising against someone skilled could be detrimental, as someone said earlier - on the street they will almost always be untrained and completely random

  6. #21
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    just thought too

    if someone is going to stab you, they will very rarely show you they have a knife

    unless you are being mugged then 90% of the time that you are threatened with a weapon it is probably just to sh!t you up. if someone had upset you would you give them warnin... 'in precisely 2minutes and 36 seconds i will punch you'.. no you wouldnt. you wouldnt give them the warning

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Hello,

    Anyone who trains with a knife in a realistic situation will have been cut and expect to be cut. No matter how skilled one is with empty hands or even with a blade, when facing someone else with a blade it is most likely both will be cut.

    If one is to survive an edged weapon encounter then one must accept that they will be cut. You must mentally prepare yourself for the fact your will be injured and be ready to fight on no matter what. For most the shock of being cut is what stops them, they are unprepared for seeing their own blood and fighting through the pain. Unfortunately, there are few options for preparing to fight after one has really been cut so it is impossible to predict how one will respond in a real situation. All one can do is train as best they can, but IMHO spend as much or more time on mental preparation and visualizing being cut and still fighting on no matter what.

    The video seen in many LE training classes is titled "Surviving Edged Weapons". It featured Dan Inosonto (sp?) as well as Tuhon Leo Gaje. What the video showed is that if a knife weilding attacker is within 21 feet it is highly unlikely that an officer will be able to draw and fire 2-3 times before he is cut. In some instances both the attacker and the officer will both be injured for real, but the point being that the knife weilder will most likely reach and strike the officer. The 21 feet is seen as the minimal safe distance for facing an attacker armed with an edged weapon which will allow the drawing and firing of a holstered weapon.

    On another note, slashes, while deadly, rarely result in death. The more dangerous is the stab, even if it does not appear to be bleeding much, as in many cases the bleeding is internal. Also, a small blade is all that is needed to penetrate to most vital targets, 3" is more than sufficient to kill.

    One technique which is particularily dangerous is commonly referred to P'Kal and involves catching the limb with the blade down. If this is successful then the opponent will further injure themselves if they attempt to pull away. Of course the one with the knife can also pull the blade towards themselves as well.

    A skilled knife fighter will be able to manuever the blade with a speed and flow akin to Chi Sau. If blocked they will redirect to another target.

    All in all better to avoid if at all possible. If not, expect to get cut and have to fight on. FWIW one technique taught to me in the military involved taking a cut\slash on the outside of the forearm in order to get close enough to deliver a killing blow. Not saying this is such a good idea, but it does stress the reality of being cut in a real fight.

    Oh, not to be picky, but the chances of coming up against a skilled knife fighter are pretty good, imho. Anyone who has been to prison or grown up on the streets will most likely be pretty proficient with using a blade.

    As I like to tell my students, when I used to teach, "I cheat". Rest assured that those you encounter on the street will also "cheat". It is highly probable that you will not even see the first strike but jus feel the results. If you are not ready for that mentally then you will most likely not survive. Also, even if you survive you may be maimed in some way.
    Well said on all points.
    I will add that, because stabs are indeed so deadly and, lets face it, require less skill than slashes to be deadly, the prison "sewing machine" attack ( as some like to call it) is one of the most dangerous and effective attacks used, even by well trained knife fighters.
    Think of repeated thrusts and stabs in conjunction with strikes or grabs with the free hand, in a "sewing machine" or "machine gun fashion".
    Psalms 144:1
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Well said on all points.
    I will add that, because stabs are indeed so deadly and, lets face it, require less skill than slashes to be deadly, the prison "sewing machine" attack ( as some like to call it) is one of the most dangerous and effective attacks used, even by well trained knife fighters.
    Think of repeated thrusts and stabs in conjunction with strikes or grabs with the free hand, in a "sewing machine" or "machine gun fashion".

    I don't claim to be a trained or skilled knife fighter... so take this for what it is, an opinion. As I stated before we work on situations like this from time to time with our sifu. My sifu is very skilled with a knife and even very good at defending against one in a controlled situation.

    Notice I said in a " Controlled Situation "

    I can't know how well he'd do in a combat situation.


    From his experience he mentioned that you'd actually would have a better chance of defending yourself against the "Sewing Machine" type attack. His reason for saying this, was the method in which you would have to hold the knife only allows for certain movements and stabs. Also, you can actually see the knife in that method of attack. Where as a trained knife fighter who holds the blade down can move in any direction and cut , slice, stab on a dime. This type of attack he says is pretty much unstoppable because you'd never know which direction the knife was coming from and more than likely you'd never even see the blade.

    There are certain ways you could react with the "sewing machine" attack that just might give you a chance, but almost no angle to defense the other.


    jeff
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    RIP Kuen "Fred" Woo (sifu)

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmd161 View Post
    I don't claim to be a trained or skilled knife fighter... so take this for what it is, an opinion. As I stated before we work on situations like this from time to time with our sifu. My sifu is very skilled with a knife and even very good at defending against one in a controlled situation.

    Notice I said in a " Controlled Situation "

    I can't know how well he'd do in a combat situation.


    From his experience he mentioned that you'd actually would have a better chance of defending yourself against the "Sewing Machine" type attack. His reason for saying this, was the method in which you would have to hold the knife only allows for certain movements and stabs. Also, you can actually see the knife in that method of attack. Where as a trained knife fighter who holds the blade down can move in any direction and cut , slice, stab on a dime. This type of attack he says is pretty much unstoppable because you'd never know which direction the knife was coming from and more than likely you'd never even see the blade.

    There are certain ways you could react with the "sewing machine" attack that just might give you a chance, but almost no angle to defense the other.


    jeff
    The sewing machine attack is done with the knife held in the hammer or "sabre" position and as such, there is far less telegraphing than with the reverse grip (ice pick) which is what I THINK you are saying when you say "blade down".
    With the ice pick your elbow tends to lead your blade.
    And the typical sewing machine attack does NOT show the blade.
    Its called a sewing machine because of the MOTION not the way the blade id held, heck you can do it with an ice pick grip too.
    What examplifies the sewing machin is this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz08AUmXSxE

    At the 4:22 mark and on. ( watch the whole thing though)
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Ah dude, if a guy has a knife and knows how to use it, you're a carved turkey, period.
    Unless you have a knife/weapon and are BETTER than your attacker.
    Unarmed VS a knife?
    Versus a guy that KNOWS how to use it and WANTS to kill you?
    Ah dude....
    Sad as it is to say SR is right.

    If your opponent knows how to use a blade they will cut whatever part of your body you present for cutting and will then capitalize on the openings created to cut you more.

    This falls under the heading of:

    "don't let this happen to you" or alternately "run away!"
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    The sewing machine attack is done with the knife held in the hammer or "sabre" position and as such, there is far less telegraphing than with the reverse grip (ice pick) which is what I THINK you are saying when you say "blade down".
    With the ice pick your elbow tends to lead your blade.
    And the typical sewing machine attack does NOT show the blade.
    Its called a sewing machine because of the MOTION not the way the blade id held, heck you can do it with an ice pick grip too.
    What examplifies the sewing machin is this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz08AUmXSxE

    At the 4:22 mark and on. ( watch the whole thing though)


    Yeah I watched the video again and I wouldn't want to face either. LOL


    The method I'm talking about would be the "Ice Pick" type grip. My sifu uses the same type of movement with the free hand like in that video, so if there was any leading with the elbow...I don't think you'd have time to notice. He worked with us using the other grip as well, but with the "Ice Pick" his preferred method of holding the knife and he showed techniques that at least led us to believe it would be much more deadly. He was very compact with the movement and every move was a slice to a tendon or muscle or vital area. From his words and from our training experience you pretty much dead if you face a skilled knife fighter who's intent on taking you out. Especially within that 0-6' range they spoke of in the video...it's funny because my sifu said about the same exact range.

    Scary stuff!

    jeff
    少林黑虎門
    Sil Lum Hak Fu Mun
    RIP Kuen "Fred" Woo (sifu)

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSWCTN1 View Post
    it happened during a 'break' in fighting. this is one of the reasons why i think sparring is not the be-all-and-end-all. real fights break and come back together again - as such, IMHO practising entry drills can be almost as important as sparring.
    Sparring is better than not-sparring.

    See nobody is saying that if you spar you will automatically be prepared for any situation that arises. But you will be a **** sight better prepared than the guy who never spars.

    Blade training, likewise, must include a sparring aspect.

    With reference to sparring with blades one issue is that, as has been pointed out, getting cut hurts. As a result, although it is of limited use, I would advise against rubber knives rubbed with lipstick (or other such tricks) after the first session.

    Instead I'd actually suggest starting off with shinai and no pads. Progress from there to (not to put too fine a point on it) sticks of the length that replicate the blades you wish to train on.

    Nothing cultures respect for a weapon like getting smacked on the knuckles (and upside the head) a bunch of times with a chunk of wood.

    If you really care about NOT losing an eye than a fencing mask might be a good investment.

    Gee... who does basically this?

    Hmmmm...

    The dog brothers.

    Guess I gotta add my recommendation of their pedagogy to SR's.
    Last edited by SimonM; 03-20-2009 at 07:39 AM.
    Simon McNeil
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrQuickstep View Post
    How do you defeat a SKILLED fighter who's out for your total destruction?

    I was watching some knife fighting videos on youtube then the thought came to me "What the hell would I do in that situation?", " Thrust a guard out and have it cut to ribbons!...no I'd shorten my guard and my blocks (I know theres no blocks in wing chun- maybe my defensive hand techniques ) then I'd perform some sort of limb destruction to immobilize the weapon then I turn and take out my opponent.

    By the way the attacker is SKILLED! like an EVIL GURO DAN INOSANTO!!!! theres no one stab to guts but a million and one slashes).

    1.What would you do?

    2.Can you shorten your guard? And what happens to the immoveable elbow theory?

    3.Does anyone practice limb destruction in there wing chun (nerves, muscles, joints)?

    4.What about your footwork? Is it alive enough for this kind off situation?

    5.What drills do you think would help? It can could from any art once you mod it to use wing chun concepts.
    My advice is to learn how to knife fight. Study Kali/escrima. Filipino martial arts are a lot more complete than you may think. You dont just learn sticks, the sticks are not just for graduating to knife techniques. Kali escrima techniques are effective empty handed as well. In our kali training we use stick vs stick, knife vs stick, knife vs knife in our sparring. However we also train empty hand against knife as well. Kali/escrima is also full of locks,throws/felling, kicks, dis-arms, and hand strikes and footwork.
    All of your questions could be answered by doing this.
    我听见,我忘记;我看见,我记住;我做,我了解。
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  14. #29
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    It is 100% truth that a stick can be an equalizer against a blade.

    Please note: can, not will, but it's a big risk.

    And two caviats:

    1) For a stick to be an effective equalizer you have to be significantly better with it than your opponent is with a blade.

    2) The stick should be considerably longer than the blade so that you can exploit a range advantage.

    With regard to disarms I've made it clear in previous posts what I think of the tactical usefullness of them.

    95% of them are a very good way to get yourself cut. And rule number 1 of blade fighting is avoid getting cut if you can.
    Simon McNeil
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    Be on the lookout for the Black Trillium, a post-apocalyptic wuxia novel released by Brain Lag Publishing available in all major online booksellers now.
    Visit me at Simon McNeil - the Blog for thoughts on books and stuff.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonM View Post
    It is 100% truth that a stick can be an equalizer against a blade.

    Please note: can, not will, but it's a big risk.

    And two caviats:

    1) For a stick to be an effective equalizer you have to be significantly better with it than your opponent is with a blade.

    2) The stick should be considerably longer than the blade so that you can exploit a range advantage.

    With regard to disarms I've made it clear in previous posts what I think of the tactical usefullness of them.

    95% of them are a very good way to get yourself cut. And rule number 1 of blade fighting is avoid getting cut if you can.
    Here is the thing, if you've done full contact stick work you will know that, unless its a nice and heavy stick or an ASP or pipe/steel bar, you can take a few good shots with a stick, unless it gets you in the noggin and even then, unless its a nice and dense stick, you can still be "OK".
    Knife fighters know this and will "take a shot" to get in a stab or 2 or 15.
    You can pretty much close the gab on someone with a stick ( you with a knife) and cover yourself well and get only "minor" bruises.
    Of course if its a pipe, or ASP or heavy stick it will hurt a whole lot more, but even then a determined attacker with a knife mat still be able to get to you.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

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