How to defeat a SKILLED knife fighter who's out for your a**?

[SimonM]

You are absolutely right.

If I was armed with a stick, was facing a knife fighter and flight was not an option I'd go for fingers and face and I'd fight very conservatively.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are absolutely right.

If I was armed with a stick, was facing a knife fighter and flight was not an option I'd go for fingers and face and I'd fight very conservatively.

That is the thing though, stick work is a distance thing and once that distance is closed...
The knife is, in many ways, the ultimate in-close weapon.
It doesn't need force to do damage.
It doesn't run out of bullets.
It can be used to kill, maim even subdue.
It can end a fight quick or make it go on in a very painful and messy way.

Everyone would do well to train and understand the edged weapon.

Everyone would do well to train as if every strike was an "edged" one.

[SimonM]

You have cut the femoral artery of the correct. It is now bleeding out.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You have cut the femoral artery of the correct. It is now bleeding out.

Don't even talk about femoral...

[TenTigers]

simple solution: shoot him while he's sleeping.
that is the only way.

[TenTigers]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj_mR2r6VL8

[doug maverick]

How do you defeat a SKILLED fighter who's out for your total destruction?

I was watching some knife fighting videos on youtube then the thought came to me "What the hell would I do in that situation?", " Thrust a guard out and have it cut to ribbons!...no I'd shorten my guard and my blocks (I know theres no blocks in wing chun- maybe my defensive hand techniques ) then I'd perform some sort of limb destruction to immobilize the weapon then I turn and take out my opponent.

By the way the attacker is SKILLED! like an EVIL GURO DAN INOSANTO!!!! theres no one stab to guts but a million and one slashes).

1.What would you do?

2.Can you shorten your guard? And what happens to the immoveable elbow theory?

3.Does anyone practice limb destruction in there wing chun (nerves, muscles, joints)?

4.What about your footwork? Is it alive enough for this kind off situation?

5.What drills do you think would help? It can could from any art once you mod it to use wing chun concepts.

Question:How do you defeat a SKILLED fighter who's out for your total destruction?

Answer: with a really big gun.

[SimonM]

Unless he's up close. At < 5 meters knife > gun.

[Knifefighter]

Lots of misinformation about blade attacks on this thread.

BTW, people survive brutal, multiple wound knife attacks all the time.

[SimonM]

My primary area of blade training is with swords, I will admit, and my statements are predicated on that training. However I have some experience with knife training and although I have thankfully never had to test the training in a live environment the testing I have done suggests that the training with knives has mapped relatively well from my other experience with longer blades.

Now if you have a difference of opinion I certainly respect you enough that I'd enjoy hearing your perspective.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lots of misinformation about blade attacks on this thread.

BTW, people survive brutal, multiple wound knife attacks all the time.

While this is true, we are talking about SKILLED knife attacks.
I tend to fall in the "over cautious" and "worse case scenario" fields when it comes to edged weapons.

[Graychuan]

It is 100% truth that a stick can be an equalizer against a blade.

Please note: can, not will, but it's a big risk.

And two caviats:

1) For a stick to be an effective equalizer you have to be significantly better with it than your opponent is with a blade.
2) The stick should be considerably longer than the blade so that you can exploit a range advantage.

With regard to disarms I've made it clear in previous posts what I think of the tactical usefullness of them.

95% of them are a very good way to get yourself cut. And rule number 1 of blade fighting is avoid getting cut if you can.

Some who train kali/ escrima never get past the fact that the sticks are mainly just a precursor to using blades. A stick is a good weapon but the Kali and escrima stick training is mostly for safe sparring. This doesnt take away from the fact that sticks are effective weapons within themselves. That being said...it is the technique that allows for the knife/stick to be used and dealt with.
Whether or not someone is better at a stick than thier opponent is with a blade is not that relavent. The techniques are the same. So it really comes down to who is better at knife/stick fighting period.

Now if there is disagreement about whether or not kali/escrima sticks is or isnt the 'safe'/sparring way to practice knife fighting then this could be a whole different discussion.

Here is the thing, if you've done full contact stick work you will know that, unless its a nice and heavy stick or an ASP or pipe/steel bar, you can take a few good shots with a stick, unless it gets you in the noggin and even then, unless its a nice and dense stick, you can still be "OK".
Knife fighters know this and will "take a shot" to get in a stab or 2 or 15.
You can pretty much close the gab on someone with a stick ( you with a knife) and cover yourself well and get only "minor" bruises.
Of course if its a pipe, or ASP or heavy stick it will hurt a whole lot more, but even then a determined attacker with a knife mat still be able to get to you.

I agree with you about the sticks not being heavy or powerful enough, however the rattan kali sticks normally used are mainly for 'sparring'. Combat style escrima dont have as much of the outer layers stripped off before they are cured and used. They are a lot heavier and much more effective.

Also with the stabbings you are exactly right...this is why kali/eascrima systems have poking/stabbing motions along with slicing motions in the basic striking sets that beginners learn... because Kali/Escrima training IS knifefighting. How good of a hole will you make in a person with a blunt ended stick?

[Sihing73]

[QUOTE=Graychuan;924794]Some who train kali/ escrima never get past the fact that the sticks are mainly just a precursor to using blades. A stick is a good weapon but the Kali and escrima stick training is mostly for safe sparring. [QUOTE]

FWIW, one needs to make modifications to effectively use techniques trained with a stick and translate them to a knife. Also many of the counters need to be changes as well. One may be able to strip a stick from an opponent but I would not suggest doing that against someone with a blade. Also one can strike with any portion of the stick but one must adjust the angles and contact area to use a blad effectivley.

While it is true that stick work does translate to knife work it is not a one to one exchange. If one is not trained properly then one will be unaware of the variations in angles, etc.

Basically what I am trying to say is that just because someone knows how to use a stick does not automatically mean they are able to use a knife.

Oh, one other thing, let someone thrust you with a stick and see if if drops you. If you perform a thrust properly then even a blunt stick will do a bit of damage.

[Graychuan]

FWIW, one needs to make modifications to effectively use techniques trained with a stick and translate them to a knife. Also many of the counters need to be changes as well. One may be able to strip a stick from an opponent but I would not suggest doing that against someone with a blade. Also one can strike with any portion of the stick but one must adjust the angles and contact area to use a blad effectivley.

While it is true that stick work does translate to knife work it is not a one to one exchange. If one is not trained properly then one will be unaware of the variations in angles, etc.

Basically what I am trying to say is that just because someone knows how to use a stick does not automatically mean they are able to use a knife.

Oh, one other thing, let someone thrust you with a stick and see if if drops you. If you perform a thrust properly then even a blunt stick will do a bit of damage.

I completely agree...this is why i made thepoint that some dome make the change from stick to knife. Some dont know. And just forthe record...my original response was to learn Kali/escrima in order to learn the application of knife as well. Not just the stick. The training and information that comes with graduating from stick to knife is what is important. And i would argue on the the variations of angles and such with regards to the stick to knife thing. Other than the longer stick, the angles and footwork are generally the same. You mainly just go for the cut with a Knife whereas with a stick the tendency is to block/strike and counter. But ,again, I am aware that I am greatly generalizing here.
On that last point....if I wanted to poke or stab...i would still use a knife instead of a stick but I am in agreement that both are effective.

[MrQuickstep]

THIS THREAD (FORUM) IS A WASTE OF TIME!!!

Whats wrong with you guys why are you guys just wimping out...

All you guys are saying is that wing chun can't deal with that situation so we go dead or go learn another art that can deal with it.

We're only as good as we train so if we don't train for the situation we can't deal with it. Why don't we invite some knife fighters to the forum and let them explain what works for them and why...then we meet them in a dojo with a magic marker and try something.

Seems like this forum is all talk...my style is better than your style, my internal is better than your external, I wanna be like bruce lee when I grow up (I wonder who bruce lee wanted to be like?), modern martial arts and practices better than old martial arts and practices (but then why was your sifu's sifu sifu so **** good...must be luck).People needs to remember that what look good today looks like crap tomorrow.

This thread has shown me the light...I'm done with wing chun, thanks fellas.