Sil Lim Tau Applications?

[TenTigers]

"Essentially that is all you do at first. Is watch your Sifu an mimic what he is doing. When he watches you do something wrong then he corrects you!"

This is the beginner's level. The real corrections come from touch.
Even when first learning SNT, your Sifu touches and feels your structure. He doesn't simply reposition your hands. It is not a display.

[AdrianK]

The major problem with your analogy is the instrument(the human body) is the same among all wing chun lineages.
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You are entitled to your opinion- but IMO, there are vast differences in the meaning of the body and how various parts are used in different versions of wing chun. Stances, structures, motions,
muscle, joints, tendon usage appears to vary widely to a discerning eye.

joy chaudhuri

Well I never meant that there aren't. I just meant that your analogy was off. The vast differences in meaning of the body and how various parts work can be compared to for instance, six-string instruments and how many variations there are. Acoustic, Electric, not to mention all of the various types, styles of music you can play, etc.

[Hendrik]

Whose description? Gwok Si, Gwok Faht-each Sifu has his own method, his own experience, his own understanding and refinements and evolution. .

Your opinion sure is acceptable.

as your the Gwok Si, Gwok Faht stuffs.


I follow my sigung's teaching, where he follows Yik Kam my ancestors' teaching. and Yik Kam follow Miu Shun the creator of our SLT's teaching. That is what the family tree and position is about.

My sigung, LateGm Cho On who was Gm YKS and GM Yip Man's class, said that

Coffee needs to taste like coffee, it can be plain coffee, milk coffee, and other types of Coffee, but one cant call Tea as Coffee.



I also belive in Dr. Leung Ting's view on Kung Fu, where he says what one really used in the real life is their real kung fu.





With my simple minded, kung fu is simple, WCK is about LEt Go let God and flow, WCK doesnt do this kiu sau or that kiu sau. Everything is sau. because WCK kuen kuit said, Using silence to lead action. No particular shape No particular form. But flow.

and Kung fu is the long term conditioning until one and the art become one. Kung fu is not the explicit shape on mimic.


For me, I can only be one style and practice according to the Kuen Kuit of my lineage; I cant be Emei today, Shao LIn tomorrow, and Wudang the day after or I have everything.

In my lineage, there are milestones one achieved. If one train according to the Kuen kuit, one achieve the milestone when one's kung fu grow. I personally not at the point to evolve the system or develop and new system yet. For, in the past 150 years, there still non in our lineage surpast Yik Kam our ancestor.

So, my personal experience means not much because my personal experience is within the low level expected mile stone as predicted in our lineage.

[TenTigers]

"See, for me thing is simple, WCK is about LEt Go let God and flow, WCK doesnt do this kiu sau or that kiu sau. Everything is sau. because WCK kuen kuit said, Using silence to lead action. No particular shape No particular form. But flow."

I agree wholeheartedly with this, Hendrick. As I understand it, the sup yee kiu sao are not so much separate kiu sau, but simply a way to describe qualities of energy/usage/movement. The trouble is, when someone tries to pass on knowledge, break it down into words, rather than through touch, much is lost rather than maintained, and it becomes overcomplicated. In reality, there is only sau. When I play with my teacher and ask him which bridge he used, he reponds with,"I don't have any idea. My hand just..goes." Once you nail it down into words, you lose the entire concept.
"The tao (sau)that can be named is not the true tao (sau)."

[Hendrik]

"See, for me thing is simple, WCK is about LEt Go let God and flow, WCK doesnt do this kiu sau or that kiu sau. Everything is sau. because WCK kuen kuit said, Using silence to lead action. No particular shape No particular form. But flow."

I agree wholeheartedly with this, Hendrick. As I understand it, the sup yee kiu sao are not so much separate kiu sau, but simply a way to describe qualities of energy/usage/movement. The trouble is, when someone tries to pass on knowledge, break it down into words, rather than through touch, much is lost rather than maintained, and it becomes overcomplicated. In reality, there is only sau. When I play with my teacher and ask him which bridge he used, he reponds with,"I don't have any idea. My hand just..goes." Once you nail it down into words, you lose the entire concept.
"The tao (sau)that can be named is not the true tao (sau)."

Sure, you know your art better.



For me, there are different type of flow. the Shao Lin type the Taiji type the Emei type ....etc.

So, those IMHO are not general stuffs.

[Hendrik]

Ging is cultivated in many other ways-Tiet Sien Kuen is only one method, and the method shown is but one method.


Within TSK, there are many breakdowns, each being different.


That is like saying SNT is the ONLY method WCK cultivates ging.


We all know this not to be true.

There are many Lien Gung methods within both systems.

.

IMHO,



SLT train one type of platform, and from this platform different Jin surfaces. and the whole WCK infact only needs one type of core platform. Because it is impractical to have a Shao lin, a Wudang....etc. it doesnt make sense and the mind/body can only be cultivate one way, unless one is super genious.

similar to meditaion training, either it is Buddhist which cultivate the Buddha Nature or the Daoist which cultivate the Qi and then Shen. There cannot be practice both Buddhist and Daoist meditation in the same time, because they conflict.



TSK is a different type of platform. and thus from this platform different jin surfaces.



That is analogy to Striking with a hammer platform and Cross bow platform. Different type of jin will surface from these platform and they are different.

Those who cultivate the Hammer type of platform will not get the Cross bow platform, thus, those who have the type of Jin in Cross bow will not be the same with the Jin in the Hammer type.

However, Thus, I have heard from the old timer, most people today have never develop these platform. It stops at general muscular force generation. Thus, one cannot differentiate which is which because there has none to begin with. the kung fu is not even deep enough to enter the door.



For example,

paid attention to all these Iron Wire clip from different GM.
See the common denominator of how these GMs manage the breathing, see how to applied force using the Dandien, using the sound.....etc




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJU8X...om=PL&index=27

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE-KH...aynext_from=PL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDTniv8PuW0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPwU1A0N5GM





Now, look at this clip on Yik Kam SLT/ mother of SLT the emei 12 zhuang, pay attention how the person start with align the mind and body to enter silence and then cultivate the flow, using as little force or practically working on "let go"/ relax spread, How he let the Qi sink....

Since the WCK kuen kuit said, Using the silence to lead action, the first step of this SLT training is to cultivate enter into the silence.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g


also

This is how GM TST cultivate his SNT from Gm Ip Man lineage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJX216fiIbs


Gm Ip Man himself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmxML...eature=related


For me, by evidence, these are different platform, different Jin comes out of different platform.
Thus, for me, Hung gar and Yik Kam's SLT from the Red Boat era are very different art. training in one platform will not get the jin of other platform. The body condition by one way will be different then the body condition by another way. and the accumulation of body conditioning cannot change over night or acqure over night. those are the Kung fu.



as for the application of SLT/SNT, IMHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHo, without the the set straight and cultivate the mind/body conditioning, there is no application. beause there is no Kung thus, no WC Kung fu.

[Golden Arms]

Here is where it gets difficult Hendrik,

I think that you made some strong points with that last post. Unfortunately we are dealing with perception, and typing/talking as our medium of transfer of ideas.

From my perspective thus far,

Many teachers don't pass on the spirit/flavor/kyun kyut of their systems until much later, or may not stress them as "the only way". This leads to people viewing their systems as the movements and what those movements/shapes feel like to perform. From the shapes perspective, Hung and Wing Chung share much.

From the spirit of how they are practiced, they are indeed often practiced very differently. I have elements of my practice that are very much in the 'quiet' method, but I would not say that in general, that is stressed in sets like TSK, with the same flavor as in the footage you posted. (PM for details if you want them)

You bring up a good point. Depending on where on the path the practitioner is, they may see the system as movements, they may see the systems as strong or weak in certain ranges, they may see the system as the 'spiritual approach' taken towards situations, etc. Much like Zen/Chan, you simply are, where you are on your path. For this same reason I wonder sometimes if what I practice will even still "be" Hung Gar, past a certain point, since I use the movements and shapes of Hung, but the Spirit continues to evolve.

Going over my thoughts out loud in part, I hope some of that was cohesive.

[Yoshiyahu]

From reading your post. it sounds like one should want to be specialist in one area. Oppose to cross training lets say Hung Gar and Wing Chun. Would you say its extremely difficult to learn,practice and cultivate the Kungs from Hung Gar and WC?

Would it be more benefical for someone to choose one an develop the Kung for that system??????


Why type of Kung does one develop from Wing Chun in your opinion...

I always thought of one the well known kungs of Wing Chun was Short Fajing or inch power.

Please share what you think?

IMHO,



SLT train one type of platform, and from this platform different Jin surfaces. and the whole WCK infact only needs one type of core platform. Because it is impractical to have a Shao lin, a Wudang....etc. it doesnt make sense and the mind/body can only be cultivate one way, unless one is super genious.

similar to meditaion training, either it is Buddhist which cultivate the Buddha Nature or the Daoist which cultivate the Qi and then Shen. There cannot be practice both Buddhist and Daoist meditation in the same time, because they conflict.



TSK is a different type of platform. and thus from this platform different jin surfaces.



That is analogy to Striking with a hammer platform and Cross bow platform. Different type of jin will surface from these platform and they are different.

Those who cultivate the Hammer type of platform will not get the Cross bow platform, thus, those who have the type of Jin in Cross bow will not be the same with the Jin in the Hammer type.

However, Thus, I have heard from the old timer, most people today have never develop these platform. It stops at general muscular force generation. Thus, one cannot differentiate which is which because there has none to begin with. the kung fu is not even deep enough to enter the door.



For example,

paid attention to all these Iron Wire clip from different GM.
See the common denominator of how these GMs manage the breathing, see how to applied force using the Dandien, using the sound.....etc




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJU8X...om=PL&index=27

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE-KH...aynext_from=PL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDTniv8PuW0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPwU1A0N5GM





Now, look at this clip on Yik Kam SLT/ mother of SLT the emei 12 zhuang, pay attention how the person start with align the mind and body to enter silence and then cultivate the flow, using as little force or practically working on "let go"/ relax spread, How he let the Qi sink....

Since the WCK kuen kuit said, Using the silence to lead action, the first step of this SLT training is to cultivate enter into the silence.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g


also

This is how GM TST cultivate his SNT from Gm Ip Man lineage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJX216fiIbs


Gm Ip Man himself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmxML...eature=related


For me, by evidence, these are different platform, different Jin comes out of different platform.
Thus, for me, Hung gar and Yik Kam's SLT from the Red Boat era are very different art. training in one platform will not get the jin of other platform. The body condition by one way will be different then the body condition by another way. and the accumulation of body conditioning cannot change over night or acqure over night. those are the Kung fu.



as for the application of SLT/SNT, IMHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHo, without the the set straight and cultivate the mind/body conditioning, there is no application. beause there is no Kung thus, no WC Kung fu.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

Many teachers don't pass on the spirit/flavor/kyun kyut of their systems until much later, or may not stress them as "the only way". This leads to people viewing their systems as the movements and what those movements/shapes feel like to perform. From the shapes perspective, Hung and Wing Chung share much.

I totally agree, my sifu often refers to wing chun as "the black belts art" because from his experiences wing chun teaches the "black belt level" stuff right from the beginning, the "flavor" of the art is taught (at my school) right from the beginning, our wing chun is not traditional if you can use it in combat it isnt practiced, even our chi sao is much different than anything ive seen on youtube it very alive and we change levels often much like sifu Chu's we are workin on some vids to hopefully post asap.

[Askari Hodari]

LOL, sounds like all Wing Chun in St Louis is done in underground secret societies and by invitation only run by retired masters who are now in witness protection with secret identities..

One more reason why I'm just passing through.

[Hendrik]

Depending on where on the path the practitioner is, they may see the system as movements, they may see the systems as strong or weak in certain ranges, they may see the system as the 'spiritual approach' taken towards situations, etc.


Much like Zen/Chan, you simply are, where you are on your path. For this same reason I wonder sometimes if what I practice will even still "be" Hung Gar, past a certain point, since I use the movements and shapes of Hung, but the Spirit continues to evolve.
.

IMHO,

This is the level where most have never touched it or even know it exist.

This is the level of needed the specific details and Xum Faat or the Heart Method.


each indepth art has a specific details and Xum Faat which is unique.


Thus, one cultivate according to that Xum Faat and it wont run into Do I do Yee Jin Jing of Shao LIn or Do I do Emei 12 Zhuang since both of them needs to enter into silence before practice.

For the Yee JIn Jing and Emei 12 Zhuang Case, the Yee Jin Jing starts with open up/activate the Lung medirians. Emei 12 Zhuang starts with open up/activate the liver medirians......


Those are deeper level of differentiation.








Certainly, Wing Chun today evolve as we know, There are Hung Gar + Wing Chun, there are Taiji+ Wing Chun, There are Bjj + Wing Chun, There are CLF +Wing Chun........ everything is ok as soon as one knows what is it.


The following are an example in my own lineage,


This is SLT training which is evolve toward the Southern Shao LIn, Hung Gar, CLF....etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7exQZ1UeL9w




This is a typical SLT training

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGBsnNDXKI8




This is SLT training which is using the SLT kuen kuit and the mother Emei 12 Zhuang as guideline

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g






This is Southern Shao lin evolution type

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMVsWwjcOAQ


This is Hung Gar evolution type
http://www.shaolin.org/combat/wingchoon.html



This is older version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqHE5A4LC80



See how different are them even they are within the same lineage from the same ancestor Yik Kam after 100+ years. another 20 years how far it will varies?

[Hendrik]

it sounds like one should want to be specialist in one area.

why do one called one WCner is one is not specialist in WCK?

Why type of Kung does one develop from Wing Chun in your opinion...

you dont need my opinion, for Wing Chun it obviously have to be Wing Chun Kung right?

I always thought of one the well known kungs of Wing Chun was Short Fajing or inch power.

Is Kung equal to Fajing? what is Kung? what is Fa Jing?

[Yoshiyahu]

Hmm is Kung Equal to Fajin?

Yes and NO I would say.

Is Tiger Claw a Kung? Yes
Are Light Skills a Kung? Yes
Is Phoenix Eye Fist a Kung? Yes
Is Iron Palm a Kung? Yes
Is Iron Arms and Iron Shins a Kung? Yes
Is Iron Body a Kung? Yes
Is Shortpower a Kung? Yes
Are Iron finger conditioning a Kung? Yes

Not every system uses Fajin type of energy. There is exploding, pushing, pulling dispersing,piercing or pentrating and other types of energy that can be utilize.

So yes Fajin would be a Kung to develop to give your WC teeth. WC is a gun and Kungs are the bullets. Can you use a gun with out bullets?

Well Yes and No. You can beat someone on the head with the butt of the gun. But someone else who has a gun and bullets with defeat you and your gun if you don't have Ammo!

Just my opinion! Please share yours?

What Kungs should one wish to develop in Wing Chun?

Oh an to our second question a Kung is skill! Isn't developing Root,Lightskills,Fajin,Iron Palm and or iron conditioning Skills?

Isn't Kung Fu skill work or Aqcuired Skill?

Is Kung equal to Fajing? what is Kung? what is Fa Jing?

[LSWCTN1]

who said earlier that hung gar and wing chun have similarities?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k1u7...eature=related

some of this looks extremely familiar!

also, Hendrik, in your last video at around 30 seconds in. there is a picture of the two 'main' different body structures we tend to see in YM wc. is that only this way because the camera caught a transition shot, or is the way it should be?

which of the two does your Yik Kam system advocate?

kind regards

David

[Hendrik]

who said earlier that hung gar and wing chun have similarities?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k1u7...eature=related

some of this looks extremely familiar!

A very different type of body mechanics if you know where to look.

also, Hendrik, in your last video at around 30 seconds in. there is a picture of the two 'main' different body structures we tend to see in YM wc. is that only this way because the camera caught a transition shot, or is the way it should be?

Dont understand what you refer to as Two"main" different body structure?

which of the two does your Yik Kam system advocate?

Yik kam put internal structure more important then the external shape.

An example is when Yik Kam went to teach in Cho family, Yik kam ask them to keep doing their old other styles' forms but change the way how they do it in WCK way.