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Registered User
oh, of course, the mechanics will be different, but some of the movements are simillar. especially the opening sequence. like you said with the cho family forms - they may externally look the same as standard choi le fut etc. but they now have wc principles no?Originally Posted by Hendrik
the two main body structures that are often argued about are the pelvis pushed forward, and the body leaning back slightly, and the tailbone just slightly 'popped' out (at least thats how i am taught) and the back completely straight.
what i mean is that the internal structure cannot be the same for these two different shapes. i was wondering if your cho family material prefers one method or the other?
kind regards
David
The Baji Bomber of Xi'an
It's ok.
Hendrik is incapable of finding common threads among martial arts. He believes that Wing Chun is unique and that none of the core ideas can be found anywhere else.
He's "special" that way.
aka: Bailewen - 白乐文
Me using Baji in a match
Me performing Dabaji and taking silver at a national comp in China (Got gold medals too but no video)
www.xiangwuhui.com
Glorified TCMAist
I have said this before;
Take two people, put them in a vaccuum-meaning without any outside help.
Have them develop short-range fighting. They will, by neccesity, develop the following:
1. ebows in, hands foward-protecting the intercostals and internal organs, and intercepting the opponent's strikes
2. sensitivity/bridge training-running, sticking, trapping
3. short power/unified body power
4. chest swallowed, sacrum tucked, chin tucked,knees in (some variation of YJKYM)
5. vital point striking-weapon development
6. evasive footwork
Add to that that WCK, Hakka Kuen (Bak Mei, Lung Ying,SPM) Nam Siu-Lum, share common ancestory, is it no wonder that there are similarities?
It is not coincidence. The similarities far outweigh the differences.
Sure, each style will develop idiosynchrocies, subtle differences,various specialities and development, but they didn't reinvent the wheel.
They simply have different hubcaps.
"My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"
"I will not be part of the generation
that killed Kung-Fu."
....step.
Banned
I think you are exactly right. This is IMHO one of the most insightful posts I've read on this forum. Kudos.
Registered User
oh, of course, the mechanics will be different, but some of the movements are simillar. especially the opening sequence.
If you following this thread, in the previous threads we discuss on one sees different stuffs depend on one's level.
like you said with the cho family forms - they may externally look the same as standard choi le fut etc. but they now have wc principles no?
1, Very often, I have going around asking my school mates are they still do WCK or some other art?
or even it have reached the point, the CLF specialist said one is just monkey around with the movement while the WCK spricilaist said there is no WCK at all.
2, I also I dont buy everyone's "the externally look the same as Standard CLF but using WC principle stuffs. " story.
Yik Kam might be able to do it but how close is one's kung fu relative to Yik Kam?
and also, even Yik Kam can do it, if he meet the founder of CLF or the second generation top student of CLF they will right a way tell Yik kam is not doing CLF even it might looks like.
It is like Yik Kam is good in Act as Female in the opera, but he is not a woman no matter how great is his perfomance.
3, The Yik Kam teaching is something there 100 years or more ago, is it applicable today?
Thus, my view is simply " Do only WCK as written and teach by Yik Kam and nothing else."
Until one is a Specialist, dont pull any stunt and end up becoming a monkey doing monkey business.
the two main body structures that are often argued about are the pelvis pushed forward, and the body leaning back slightly, and the tailbone just slightly 'popped' out (at least thats how i am taught) and the back completely straight.
what i mean is that the internal structure cannot be the same for these two different shapes.
i was wondering if your cho family material prefers one method or the other?
1, what is internal structure means for you?
2, Applied to the Yik Kam lineage only, Anyone who knows the internal structure of Yik Kam lineage will not ask the question you ask. Because what you ask is proper with your understanding but nature doesnt work this way. and Yik Kam's teaching is focus on harmony to the nature instead of following some man made rule or structure.
it is like asking is rainbow black or white?
Last edited by Hendrik; 04-22-2009 at 02:42 PM.
Glorified TCMAist
black, right? It's black. Am I right? What'd I win?
(I knew it! I knew it was black!)
"My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"
"I will not be part of the generation
that killed Kung-Fu."
....step.
findin wuji thru Christ
a trip to see the leprechaun
"Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight."-Psalms 144:1
"I Am The Punishment Of God, If You Had Not Committed Great Sins, God Would Not Have Sent A Punishment Like Me Upon You"-Genghis Khan
"The light of the eyes is a comet, And ones' activity is as lightning, The sword that kills the man; is the sword that saves the man"
Registered User
sorry if i came off rude, i certainly didnt mean too - i am genuinly interested in your system
in answer to your question, internal structure (to me) means creating a strong but mobile foundation to work from. one that allows you to advance/move very fast but still having a strong foundation from which to deliver your blow. which, for us, is the most important factor - dealing with what the opponent has (whether that be by cutting the angles, blocking/parrying/ whatever) and creating the opening to become the attackER not the defender
if by internals, you mean chi, then we dont have that in my system. UNLESS, by chi - you are talking about proper structural alignment? that would be a minefield that i am not particularly knowledgeable on
kind regards
david
Wing Chun Fighter
Why do some Wing Chun Guys say they do not have Chi...
Thats just nonsense?
Do you practice Sil Lim Tao? Do you practice the Wooden Dummy form...Do you hit a wall bag...do you stand in YGKYM for prolonged periods to develop your stance?
If so you have Chi...
All these things along with punching the air develop chi in different ways.
Banned
Rant alert:
Hendrik, I actually agree with you. What you say is true in any endeavor: we can only look at things from our own particular POV which is based on our personal level of development in that endeavor.
But that raises the important question: how do we know what our personal level of development in WCK is? In my view, the only way to determine one's level in a fighting method is by their ability to use what they train actually in fighting. There is no other way. Being able to do something outside fo fighting doesn't mean you can do it in fighting. You can't judge your ability to do something in fighting by not fighting. Moreover, you can't judge anything in a MA except by and through fighting (and with competent fighters).
What I don't hear on these and other threads are people (like you) saying things like "I find this works great against the boxers I train with" or "this works great against the MT fighters I spar with" or "this works great down at the MMA gym". Rather, what I do hear on these and other threads is lots of THEORY, of various IDEAS of how people without actual fighting experience doing the things they talk about believe things should be done. I don't care about experience doing forms or experience doing san sao or chi sao or how you interpret a kuit because that isn't fighting. If someone -- anyone -- can use qi, short power strikes or whatever successfully in fighting, then let's see it. But we never do. And that's because they're not doing it in fighting, they've never done it in fighting, and they've never seen it done in fighting.
Hendrik, you're right-- your perspecitive will depend on your personal level of development. And if you are a nonfighter with WCK, then your personal level of develoment is LOW. You are a beginner and will remain a beginner regardless of however long you've "been in the art", regardless of your title, regardless of your lineage, regardless of certifications, etc. You can't have an "understanding" of how WCK works since you have little to no experience ever seeing WCK work or even trying to make it work in fighting.
The above statement implies that if we don't agree with HENDRIK's view of "SLT" and "proper" WCK development, then we just aren't at YOUR "level". You're right. Of course, you believe that you are more advanced, have a greater "understanding" of these things, etc. But that's where you're wrong. In actually, since you don't and can't do these things in fighting, you're really only at a beginner level. Now, if you can do these things you talk about in fighting, I would be very interested in them. I'm interested in performance, and if you can offer something that will increase my skill and performance, I'm on board. But what you don't seem to grasp is that fighters don't care about THEORY or IDEAS UNLESS THEY ARE PROVEN TO WORK IN FIGHTING (and against competent people). That's the gold standard.
So instead of talking about your interpretation of kuit, about stories from the past, showing nonfighting demos or forms of "masters", show these things in fighting and working against competent fighters. Anything else is empty.
Last edited by t_niehoff; 04-23-2009 at 07:23 AM.
Registered User
That is not the same as the cultivating qi via Taoist/Buddhist qigong practices.
Food and drink also gives us qi, but that is still not the same as deliberate/sustained cultivation.
Wing Chun Fighter
Your right its not the same. But at an advance level both end up being the same...
Tai Chi gets more external and harder at advance stages...An other more external arts get softer at the advance level. One just trains externally or internally more in the beginning an later adds the second part. But the key in my opinion is
Yee
Breath
Slow and Soft Movements in unison with the three dan tiens.
Study Sil lim Tau. Notice at which points your hand movements are reflective from your three Dan Tiens. I have notice more concentration or alignment is made with the Middle Dan Tien. Have you noticed this too? The second most frequent place is the lower Dan Tien.
Registered User
so, are you saying that i must have chi?
i dont feel that i have it, although i do feel that i am aligned properly - in a structural sense (is that what you mean?)
i have seen a chi demonstration - it was actually hw108's sifu! it was which chi 'reference point' to use when striking different points - it seemed realistic. i dont have that. i strike in a way that feels natural to me - but not in that way.
some people that i ask say that chi is just proper structural alignment. some people believe that it is a 'magical' power.
it is not something in the wsl system (as far as i know) and it is in the Lee Shing system, but my father never learnt it - so cannot pass it on (i believe its more 'closed-door' in the LS system)
all the best
David
Registered User
]sorry if i came off rude, i certainly didnt mean too - i am genuinly interested in your system
I dont think you are being rude at all.
if by internals, you mean chi, then we dont have that in my system. UNLESS, by chi - you are talking about proper structural alignment? that would be a minefield that i am not particularly knowledgeable on
To be real honest, we dont even have to get to the Qi stuffs. Yes, Qi exist and the training exist. but most will not commit to go that far.
so, What we need to get into is what is the reality on our body in the most basic level. Those are the most fundamental building block before those Qi cultivation stuffs could be carry out.
the two main body structures that are often argued about are the pelvis pushed forward, and the body leaning back slightly, and the tailbone just slightly 'popped' out (at least thats how i am taught) and the back completely straight.
to take things the above way and argue about it means one doesnt know the nature of human body and breathing and taking consideration of them.
Thus, how far will a "structure" contribute if it is not supporting by the nature of the body and breathing?
Internal structure in Yik Kam lineage means taking consideration on the key nature of the body, breathing, mind.
Last edited by Hendrik; 04-23-2009 at 11:01 AM.
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