Sil Lim Tau Applications?

[anerlich]

I am not awaiting to join the Pak Mei secret society in St.louis but have not met any practioners.

LOL. They mustn't read KFO, otherwise I'm sure they'd be falling all over themselves to get in touch.

[Yoshiyahu]

There were some pretty serious allegations made with regards to Robert McField in the thread I've unearthed. They may be false they may not but you might want to look into them.

With regards to lineage I can only find reference to Yuen Kay San teaching two people; Sum Lung and Wong Jing so the lineage still has some holes. Of course the biggest holes are twofold:

1) your refusal to name YOUR sifu - the most important person other than yourself for the purposes of assessing your training.

2) your referencing of both Robert McField and the person who I suspect is Eddie Ma (as the coincidence of McField teaching the same students as an unknown - Eddie Mau - after being himself taught by (known) Eddie Ma is rather straining of credibility) as instructors of your unnamed Sifu.

Now your instruction seems to include references to much of the bupkiss (powering up chi attacks and such) that underline the worst of McDojos; if this is in fact coming from your teacher and in light of the dirt I got from a short morning of half-hearted digging you might want to consider finding a new instructor.

Preferrably somebody who doesn't pretend to ultra-secret-super-ninja status.

Well I choose not to name my Sifu because of all the propaganda and BS that went down 20 years ago with McField and other Gung Fu Schools they challenge. As for the credibility of my Sifu,his Sihing and others he fellowships with. I have nothing but the most respect. In fact through him I have learn alot. More useful stuff with him then when I studied Aikido and Judo as a kid.


As for McDojos. My Sifu always says practicing the baiscs diligently is the key. All the other stuff he doesn't Rant and Rave on.

As for lineage...I really could care less. But my question was about applications of SLT? If you have any ideas to applications please share. If not then read another thread?

I like to think of Wing Chun being as close to boxing as anything. So everything you do is training your punch. All I want to do is hit the guy and protect myself on the way to do it. If my strike is intercepted, I use a WC tool the clear and continue hitting.

I understand what you are looking to discuss, as well. You say, "But simple applications that can be stated for those who have no idea...not even an inkling of one part of SLT."

For this, I won't look to SNT. I will look in two other places: CK and MYJ. In my lineage, they both start off the same: with a Biu. Simple idea is to bridge and the easiest way to do that is to Biu/hit.

Hard topic to talk about. Hope that I'm making sense and am contributing something.

Cheers.

Thankyou for your contribution. I started this thread because on another forum I know some people had questions about SLT an the people on that thread really never offered any answers. Also another guy asked me recently about SLT applications. I shared some answers with him. But decided to start this thread as well for him an others like him so he can see a list of applications by others way wiser than me. As for Chum Kiu and Mook Jong applications i will talk about those later. Thanks again for saying something useful.

LOL. They mustn't read KFO, otherwise I'm sure they'd be falling all over themselves to get in touch.

Ha Ha lol...So anerlich do you have any useful applications to share concerning Sil Lim Tau?

[Mr Punch]

Useful applications from SLT? All of them. Plus the energetics (body mechanics and structure). Broad subject area much?

What exactly are you asking? People to detail each move from SLT and how to use it? Sorry, there's no way of putting this without coming off as rude, but you sure do ask a lot of stupid questions.

[Yoshiyahu]

Oh okay...my bad...I will edit my post a little...


But what I mean is for some of you guys to share a few applications...not the entire form technique by technique break down...But just share one two or three techniques you learned or discovered...


The reason I picked this broad topic...because i felt it would be easy for everyone to contribute...even some newbies to WC!

Sorry for the stupid questions...Just passing the time an sharing info with others on slick tip...

Useful applications from SLT? All of them. Plus the energetics (body mechanics and structure). Broad subject area much?

What exactly are you asking? People to detail each move from SLT and how to use it? Sorry, there's no way of putting this without coming off as rude, but you sure do ask a lot of stupid questions.

[anerlich]

The crossing, finding the centreline, at the start is similar to the mechanics of the basic cross collar choke in gi (or as Mouthboy108 would call it, the kymono) grappling.

The gum/tan section simulates the action of guillotine choke, hanging choke and several other standing chokes.

The fut sao section (eye sweeps) have applications for cutting armbars and the like.

Grappling applications in SLT? Well well. Of course just doing the form won't help you apply these in an actual encounter.

You asked for three. Now stop bothering me and return to the search for those St Louis underground fighting clubs.

[Liddel]

Near the end you have bong sau-tan sau-tok sau.

What a monster topic and were off to rocky start, my SLT ends with Bong Sau, Joh Sau (like a flat/ horizontal Tan, in shape) then an upsidedown Palm strike followed by tut sau then lin wan kuen...

Howabout we just start with the obvious useful actions of SLT, Punching !

I find leanring the straight punch to be very useful, my sifu had told me so.

Yoshiyahu i find a red flags raised in my mind when people post from others words ie my sifu told me, rather than saying when i sparr or ive found... not sure if its in the wording or perhaps you trained five mins a day for years, making you still hmmmm 'fresh' to Wing Chun.

Just giving you a heads up

DREW

[bennyvt]

a weird application that i haven't heard of anywhere. I was at a club and a crawl broke out. My mate was goesoou facing me. A guy ran and king hit him. When he tried to hit him while on the ground i jumped in with a right tan sao to his right punch. I was still standing on his right. So we ended up with both right arms linked. To finish he ripped off his shirt(like hulk hogan) and screamed. He started throwing punches and i **** myself and just blocked. I didnt even throw a punch, bad vt anyway he stopped when his mate hit me from the side and broke my nose. I had only been training about four months so a big group of massive new zealanders sacred the pants off me

[Phil Redmond]

I've asked two professors of Chinese who are native speakers over the years what the characters for Siu (small/little), Nihm (thought/concept), Tauh (head) mean. One I aksed in Detroit and the one teaches Mandarin at our NJ school. They both gave very similar answers and used the word "epiphany".
I asked them both why Chinese Sifu used "small/little idea". One of them said that just because a person speaks a lenguage it doesn't make them academicaly literate. The other professor said that maybe the Sifus didn't have a good comprehension of English. What ever the reason here is a clip from my 9/08 Toronto seminar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcm0pEEK8D8

[Vajramusti]

I've asked two professors of Chinese who are native speakers over the years what the characters for Siu (small/little), Nihm (thought/concept), Tauh (head) mean. One I aksed in Detroit and the one teaches Mandarin at our NJ school. They both gave very similar answers and used the word "epiphany".
I asked them both why Chinese Sifu used "small/little idea". One of them said that just because a person speaks a lenguage it doesn't make them academicaly literate. The other professor said that maybe the Sifus didn't have a good comprehension of English. What ever the reason here is a clip from my 9/08 Toronto seminar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcm0pEEK8D8

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FWIW IMO--the two professors may have shown some snobbery. Translations are not easy-not only have to know the language, the context and the subject for good transference of meaning.

One of the purposes of the sil lim tao( an old name for the form) is to get started on the road to awareness- (epiphanies can involve heightened awareness) one idea at a time. I don't speak Chinese but from the standpoint of comparative philosophy and semiotics- sil lim tao-as a pointer-makes sense.Ok for others-not to see it that way.

joy chaudhuri

[Vajramusti]

Phil- perhaps unintentionally your two sources pointed to some important things.

PS. The first meanings of epiphany are tied up with Christianity but there is a broader and more secular meaning..,."...intuitive perception of or insight into the reality or essential meaning of something, usually initiated by some simple , homely. or commonplace occurrence or experience."
Unabridged Webster.

pps-self defense includes being able to fight but also knowing the how, the when and why of one's kung fu. Not only to fight well but knowing when to fight and when not to fight.

Even the non literati can give important insights.

joy chaudhuri

[Mr Punch]

My answer disappeared. Oh well.

[Yoshiyahu]

I've asked two professors of Chinese who are native speakers over the years what the characters for Siu (small/little), Nihm (thought/concept), Tauh (head) mean. One I aksed in Detroit and the one teaches Mandarin at our NJ school. They both gave very similar answers and used the word "epiphany".
I asked them both why Chinese Sifu used "small/little idea". One of them said that just because a person speaks a lenguage it doesn't make them academicaly literate. The other professor said that maybe the Sifus didn't have a good comprehension of English. What ever the reason here is a clip from my 9/08 Toronto seminar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcm0pEEK8D8

My answer disappeared. Oh well.

What did you say Mr Punch?

Phil,
Sil = Small or Little

Lim = concept or thought

Tauh = Head

So wouldn't Small Concept head be the correct translation. An since english speakers would have a hard time understanding the purpose of the usage head. Wouldn't Little concept or small thought also be okay...

How does the translation alter the actual meaning if its not completely accurate.

For instance there are many hebrew words in bible that have never been translated correctly into english but just replaced. Like the name of the father and son. The word Worship is mistranslated and praise is often mistranslated too.

But please share what would be better translation?

Sil Lim Tao

Small Concept Head?
Small Thought Head?
Little Concept Head?
Little Thought Head?

Small Head Thought?
Small Head Concept?
Little Head Concept?
Little Head Thought?

Small Idea?
Little Idea?

A synomym for Thought and Concept is "Idea"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/thought[2]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/concept

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/idea

[Matrix]

What ever the reason here is a clip from my 9/08 Toronto seminar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcm0pEEK8D8

Hey Phil,
I like the "home key" analogy. Nice one.

Cheers,
Bill

[Matrix]

But please share what would be better translation?

Sil Lim Tao

Small Concept Head?
Small Thought Head?
Little Concept Head?
Little Thought Head?

Small Head Thought?
Small Head Concept?
Little Head Concept?
Little Head Thought?

Small Idea?
Little Idea?

Seems to be much ado about nothing, IMO. If you decide on one translation over the other, what difference will it make in your training? Or in the results of that training? Maybe it's just me.

[Phil Redmond]

Phil- perhaps unintentionally your two sources pointed to some important things.

PS. The first meanings of epiphany are tied up with Christianity but there is a broader and more secular meaning..,."...intuitive perception of or insight into the reality or essential meaning of something, usually initiated by some simple , homely. or commonplace occurrence or experience."
Unabridged Webster.

pps-self defense includes being able to fight but also knowing the how, the when and why of one's kung fu. Not only to fight well but knowing when to fight and when not to fight.

Even the non literati can give important insights.

joy chaudhuri

Very good points Joy. Most words have an etymological meaning and a common usage meaning. When you and I were kids a hoe was only a garden tool.
One definition of epiphany is:
"a sudden, intuitive perception of or insight into the reality or essential meaning of something, usually initiated by some simple, homely, or commonplace occurrence or experience".
That was the way they were using the word. We could also say sudden insight, aha. In fact my friend in Detroit used 'aha'
With regard to the spelling of Chinese words there will be variations. Some write Ip Man some write Yip Man. Some write VT, WT, WC. Regardless of he Westerners spell it Ip is pronounced Yip and VT, WT are all pronounced Wing Cheun. You wrote head as tao and that's as good as tauh. Since I learned Yale Romanization of Cantonese I tend to use that method. The 'h' in tauh simply denotes that the character in is the lower register.