Sil Lim Tau Applications?

[Phil Redmond]

Hey Phil,
I like the "home key" analogy. Nice one.

Cheers,
Bill

Thanks, I even added that it didn't matter if you used qwerty or dvorak.

[CFT]

YY, forget about the "head". Nim Tau/Lim Tau (same thing) is the compound word - you don't separate it. So the translation is little "something", but what is that "something"?

It could be thought, idea, concept, awakening, awareness. Just as the other posters have expanded upon.

[Mr Punch]

What did you say Mr Punch?

I wrote a long detailed answer and posted it on the thread and it disappeared. Glitch in the matrix...?

For the first part (that I posted):

the crossing of hands at the beginning of SLT is, in some versions, purely an energetic training method for if your hands are trapped/shoved and you need to raise them straight up through your opponent's hands. We practise it with no resistance, and then with progressive resistance (if you're good at it it doesn't make any difference what's on the end of it, you just focus on your structure and body mechanics and let it take care of itself - I'm not that good yet, except on occasion). It's a standard reflex for us.

Oddly enough, because you're not bothered about what happens to them, it can sometimes turn into the collar choke Andrew was talking about.

[Phil Redmond]

YY, forget about the "head". Nim Tau/Lim Tau (same thing) is the compound word - you don't separate it. So the translation is little "something", but what is that "something"?

It could be thought, idea, concept, awakening, awareness. Just as the other posters have expanded upon.

Doh ! ! I didn't think of awakening or awareness. Thanks CFT.

[Phil Redmond]

I wrote a long detailed answer and posted it on the thread and it disappeared. Glitch in the matrix...?

For the first part (that I posted):

the crossing of hands at the beginning of SLT is, in some versions, purely an energetic training method for if your hands are trapped/shoved and you need to raise them straight up through your opponent's hands. We practise it with no resistance, and then with progressive resistance (if you're good at it it doesn't make any difference what's on the end of it, you just focus on your structure and body mechanics and let it take care of itself - I'm not that good yet, except on occasion). It's a standard reflex for us.

Oddly enough, because you're not bothered about what happens to them, it can sometimes turn into the collar choke Andrew was talking about.

In some lineages it defines the central line. I also have a book by Yip Chun where he shows it defining a line.

[Genetic]

Yoshiyahu your original question about sharing applications of SNT I would say that your question itself highlights your lack of understanding of SNT desptite your years of training wing chun. You have somehow allong your wing chun journey missed what SNT actually is.

I liked Phil Redmonds concept of epiphany. I keep having little epiphanies when I practice SNT. But they are not about applications. They are about structure or energy or concepts.

SNT is not about applications. If you see or think of it in terms of applications I think that you have missed the point.

The dummy form is about applications. Drills are about applications.

The 3 hand forms. They are conceptual and through practice reveal themselves. But not in set application sequences.

I think you may have got wing chun mixed up with Karate and its forms confused with Katas...


The best advise I could give you would be to stop questioning so much, stop trying to rationalise and formalise wing chun, and start to begin to understand it.

I hate to quote Bruce Lee, but I cant help it in this scenario. Dont think. Feel.

[Vajramusti]

Doh ! ! I didn't think of awakening or awareness. Thanks CFT.

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Phil-That's what I said in my first of two consecutive posts per below

"One of the purposes of the sil lim tao( an old name for the form) is to get started on the road to awareness- (epiphanies can involve heightened awareness) one idea at a time."

thanks also to CFT for the note on the word combination.

joy chaudhuri

[Genetic]

In some lineages it defines the central line. I also have a book by Yip Chun where he shows it defining a line.

And not just a line, my Sifu has explained how it defines the postion of your structure according to your own body shape. It defines the position of your tan, gaun etc according to your natuaral body mechanics for your shape and size.

So a big wide guy will have a different shape to a skinny narrow shouldered guy etc....and the position for them will be defined by this opening movement.

Its obviously an important movement, as it is at the start of all 3 hand forms, before punching, which starts and ends all of the hand forms, with punching being of obvious importance.

[Yoshiyahu]

Seems to be much ado about nothing, IMO. If you decide on one translation over the other, what difference will it make in your training? Or in the results of that training? Maybe it's just me.

I agree. I believe understanding applications in the three forms will heighten your training and open more understanding for you.

Very good points Joy. Most words have an etymological meaning and a common usage meaning. When you and I were kids a hoe was only a garden tool.
One definition of epiphany is:
"a sudden, intuitive perception of or insight into the reality or essential meaning of something, usually initiated by some simple, homely, or commonplace occurrence or experience".
That was the way they were using the word. We could also say sudden insight, aha. In fact my friend in Detroit used 'aha'
With regard to the spelling of Chinese words there will be variations. Some write Ip Man some write Yip Man. Some write VT, WT, WC. Regardless of he Westerners spell it Ip is pronounced Yip and VT, WT are all pronounced Wing Cheun. You wrote head as tao and that's as good as tauh. Since I learned Yale Romanization of Cantonese I tend to use that method. The 'h' in tauh simply denotes that the character in is the lower register.

How does utilizing different definitions and meanings and pronunications improve your ability to use your Wing Chun?

YY, forget about the "head". Nim Tau/Lim Tau (same thing) is the compound word - you don't separate it. So the translation is little "something", but what is that "something"?

It could be thought, idea, concept, awakening, awareness. Just as the other posters have expanded upon.

I am not big on terminology as some. It has it place of course. But my main focus is discussing the ephipanies we have had with the applications of Sil Lim Tao.

I wrote a long detailed answer and posted it on the thread and it disappeared. Glitch in the matrix...?

For the first part (that I posted):

the crossing of hands at the beginning of SLT is, in some versions, purely an energetic training method for if your hands are trapped/shoved and you need to raise them straight up through your opponent's hands. We practise it with no resistance, and then with progressive resistance (if you're good at it it doesn't make any difference what's on the end of it, you just focus on your structure and body mechanics and let it take care of itself - I'm not that good yet, except on occasion). It's a standard reflex for us.

Oddly enough, because you're not bothered about what happens to them, it can sometimes turn into the collar choke Andrew was talking about.

Mr Punch thank you for sharing what this forum is really about.

This thread was designed to discuss Sil Lim Tao and how it can be adapted or broken down to train different techniques used in fighting or combat. Many on here must not know about its applications. I say this is due either to training,mistraining or just fanciful beliefs that the forms only have one purpose.

I can see Punch you may be one of the few WC people who actually uses his art.

Yoshiyahu your original question about sharing applications of SNT I would say that your question itself highlights your lack of understanding of SNT desptite your years of training wing chun. You have somehow allong your wing chun journey missed what SNT actually is.

I liked Phil Redmonds concept of epiphany. I keep having little epiphanies when I practice SNT. But they are not about applications. They are about structure or energy or concepts.

SNT is not about applications. If you see or think of it in terms of applications I think that you have missed the point.

The dummy form is about applications. Drills are about applications.

The 3 hand forms. They are conceptual and through practice reveal themselves. But not in set application sequences.

I think you may have got wing chun mixed up with Karate and its forms confused with Katas...


The best advise I could give you would be to stop questioning so much, stop trying to rationalise and formalise wing chun, and start to begin to understand it.

I hate to quote Bruce Lee, but I cant help it in this scenario. Dont think. Feel.

I have had epiphanies on how to use certain aspects of the form while fighting?

It is true the Dummy is for fighting application. But its also the true the dummy is developing proper use of power and also for improving Wing Chun body structure.

Sil Lim Tao also helps with body structure and muslce memory. But so do drills. Drills are for body structure and building proper alignment. SLT also develops Short power. It is responsible for cultivating Chi.

But you must realize all three forms are Dictionary of sorts of various techniques of your WC system.

My Sifu often stressed drilling the various techniques in SLT. This will further increase your muslce memory ingraining the technique in your Psyche.

As for fighting. many of the techniques in SLT can be used in actual combat. I can not see why you do not believe so. Do you not use these techniques in Chi Sau? Your disbelief in SLT being used in actual defense situtations is confusing. Do you guys expect to use your WC or do you practice it as a novelty.

As for lack of knowledge. If you do not understand the applications of SLT or disbelieve that SLT has applications than I fear for you. I hope you are new WCchunner. Some advice. Check out videos by

Augustine Fong

Wong Shun Leung

These two show applications of Sil Lim Tau...

Where they wrong or inexperience?

This is why I am discussing today the different Applications of SLT.

I have learned applications from my Sifu,from practicing on my own. I have also got different opinions from other WC guys from other lineages as well as seeing various applications of SLT on youtube and home videos.

You sir lack understanding of the applications an I suggest you either asked your sifu concerning the applications or you buy books on SLT that show detailed explanition of many applications!

SNT is not about applications

I agree Sil Lim Tao is about Structure,Energy,concepts. it also about Chi cultivation and much more. But just because you do not have insights outside of structure, energy and concepts doesn't mean SLT doesn't have applications.

True SLT is fixed or set sequence. But drills are also a fixed or set sequence. But the understanding comes when you realize how to turn a fixed sequence in to a flowing application. In other words the way you do SLT or a Drill is not how you will use it exactly when free sparring or doing random chi sau?

You must flow, adapt and innovate!

This is the key. I am sad you do not understand the applications my friend...Keep practicing maybe one day your mind will open up to the applications!

[Katsu Jin Ken]

Siu Nim Tao is like an acronym sortof like K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid), when i think SNT i think Keep structure and simplicity at the early stages now i have the structure just trying not be be fancy with it and have no flow in san sau.

Im not really fond of writing applications if i had a camera (cant buy one laidoff at the moment) id be more than happy to post pictures

anyone that has so good app. pics or vids, i prefer to see you all not vids of "my sifu's sifu's 3rd cousin on his momma side" im getting pretty tired of watching the "more well known" sifu's out there.

[anerlich]

Mr Punch thank you for sharing what this forum is really about.

Abusing fellow knuckleheads you're never going to meet in the flesh?

[Yoshiyahu]

Anerlich how am i abusing you knuckleheads?

Abusing fellow knuckleheads you're never going to meet in the flesh?

Yea videos of applications would be the best...i guess it would be cool to have a video thread going on too some kinda of way...

I dont have a digtial camera...for those in the U.S.A. what would be a reasonable price for a digital camera that can take pretty clear vids and also cover enough space to see one doing SLT CK and BJ? In other words all three hand forms.

Siu Nim Tao is like an acronym sortof like K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid), when i think SNT i think Keep structure and simplicity at the early stages now i have the structure just trying not be be fancy with it and have no flow in san sau.

Im not really fond of writing applications if i had a camera (cant buy one laidoff at the moment) id be more than happy to post pictures

anyone that has so good app. pics or vids, i prefer to see you all not vids of "my sifu's sifu's 3rd cousin on his momma side" im getting pretty tired of watching the "more well known" sifu's out there.

[anerlich]

Anerlich how am i abusing you knuckleheads?

It was a generalisation.

[Yoshiyahu]

It was a generalisation.

So anerlich do you study Wing Chun?

[Phil Redmond]

A little explanation of TWC's Tan and Wu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1WLJRGA3_4