Page 4 of 24 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 348

Thread: Sil Lim Tau Applications?

  1. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    You sir lack understanding of the applications an I suggest you either asked your sifu concerning the applications or you buy books on SLT that show detailed explanition of many applications!
    Yes, like the double handed fut sao (or fak sao) to simultaneously strike two conveniently placed opponents.

    Its a bit weird, but have you noticed how fak/fut sao is used differently in application than in SNT? Because in SNT it is about energy and not application.
    In application it is used like in the dummy form. I could go on but am wasting my time already.

    But if you say I lack understanding of the applications you must have some good reason for this. Other than my criticism of you missing the point of the form entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    You must flow, adapt and innovate!
    Or you could trap yourself into set sequences of moves. Shoehorning them into application when that is not really the point....

    Its a good idea, but I dont think you understand it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    This is the key. I am sad you do not understand the applications my friend...Keep practicing maybe one day your mind will open up to the applications!
    You seem to have some secret source of information about me. Alternatively you are basing your mistruths about me on your misguided perception.

    There are many applications of wing chun techniques, lets face it the potential combinations are limitless, so why try to limit them?

    Or is this how you cling to understanding, by putting things in arbitary lists?


    I've got an application for you. Fighting multiple oponents, one to your left tries a kick, which you stop with a gum sao. One to your right does the same, so you gum sao. Suddenly a third opponent approacehs you from the rear and tries a bear hug, but you quickly retract both arms, lift them with vigour, then bam - double gum sao. A fourth and fifth opponent suddely appears in front of you and both launch simultaneous flying knee strikes to your abdomen. Luckily you have this covered with a forward double gum sao. As they are moving towards you so fast, you quickly raise a double lan sao for cover. The first and second opponents to your sides suddenly wake up and come at you, but you are ready. You guessed it. Double fak sao!!!!! Bam, both of them drop to the floor twitching. Back to double lan sao when a roundhouse kick comes flying at you from the front. Double jum sao. I could go on but it is already absurd. Can you see my point?

    No, I didnt think so. The whole second section is about energy.

    Ah, but what about the third section, that is about application surely, sequences of moves. Wrong. It is about the movement from one shape to another. Tan moves forward, but also circles to the same position. Have you ever noticed that bong to tan has been missed out? I must be wrong, otherwise the form is incomplete.

    But you could think of it in terms of applications, say where you tan, change to guan, back to tan, huen and strike, but by my understanding this would be contrived. This is not the point. It is about transition between the main shapes, and the different types of motion. And structure and energy.

    It is not a karate kata!

    Im not going to make up any silly applications. I will leave this to you. Good luck with that. It is a strange way to interpret it. Kind of the way it gets presented in books aimed at people with little or no understanding of wing chun. Are these the books that you think I should read? Im simple sequences of static photos. Very useful I am sure.

    As to my understanding or comprehension of wing chun, you have no idea, your assumptions are rather pathetic and based on....what exactly?

  2. #47
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Xi'an, P.R.C.
    Posts
    1,699
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond View Post
    I've asked two professors of Chinese who are native speakers over the years what the characters for Siu (small/little), Nihm (thought/concept), Tauh (head) mean. One I aksed in Detroit and the one teaches Mandarin at our NJ school. They both gave very similar answers and used the word "epiphany".
    I asked them both why Chinese Sifu used "small/little idea". One of them said that just because a person speaks a lenguage it doesn't make them academicaly literate. The other professor said that maybe the Sifus didn't have a good comprehension of English. What ever the reason here is a clip from my 9/08 Toronto seminar:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcm0pEEK8D8
    Wow.

    Gotta question how academically literate those professors were or. . . more likely, something got lost in the "translation" of your question. As Yoshiyahu pointed out, a word by word translation does come out to "small-idea-head" but the last two characters are a compound word for "idea".

    There's nothing confusing about it at all. The name "siu lum tau" mean "little idea". Trying to separate the "num"and the "tau" into separate words is silly. In Chinese there are characters and there are words. Sometimes a single character is a word and sometimes it combines with another character to create a word just like in English where we combine greek or latin roots. In the case of lumtao (念头), the character "tao" is just a suffix to the core character "num". I don't know what's up with the Chinese speaker you asked but if you go to any off the shelf Chinese dictionary you will find "num tao" or technically "nian-tou" (the standard Mandaring pronounciation) listed there as a single word meaning "an idea".

    In fact, the word "nian"/num/念 on it's own without the suffix tau/tou/头 arguably does not mean "idea". Single characters on their own are generally very vague and require context to define their meaning specifically, hence the necessity of the suffix "tau". On it's own, num/nian/念 could mean an idea but the first meaning that would come to mind for a Chinese speaker is "to miss [someone]" or "to think about". However, by adding the suffix tau/tou/头, you change that and make the meaning very specifically "an idea".

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    4,699

    omarthefish

    I just showed the characters to two more people and they concurred with what I was told. I don't read characters well enough to argue with them.
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
    菲利普雷德蒙師傅
    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

    WCKwoon
    wck
    sifupr

  4. #49
    A good song


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDC1QeM5Pos

    may be from the lyrics one will know the tune of SLT.

    ...本应属于你的心
    它依然护紧我胸口
    为只为那峨嵋十二庄后的翻云覆雨手...
    Last edited by Hendrik; 03-30-2009 at 09:38 PM.

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Xi'an, P.R.C.
    Posts
    1,699
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond View Post
    I just showed the characters to two more people and they concurred with what I was told. I don't read characters well enough to argue with them.

    lol. Well I'd sure argue with them if I was there. I just typed out the two characters for "lum tao" (念头) and asked my girlfriend how she would translate it. She's no college proffesor but she's Chinese. Without hesitating she answered, "An idea".



    Are asking them what all 3 characters together mean or just asking the last 2 because the parsing makes difference. 小念头 is confusing but 念头 can be found in any dictionary.

    Oh well.

    p.s. I think that translating the whole thing as "epiphany" works just fine. An epiphany is and idea that suddenly comes to you after all. I am just mystified that you would manage to find a Chinese speaker anywhere who did not recognize "lumtao" as a very common, everyday word for “idea".
    Last edited by omarthefish; 03-30-2009 at 10:08 PM.

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    St.Louis Missouri
    Posts
    2,175
    You keep saying Karate Kata?

    What is the purpose of Karate Kata's?

    Please enlightening me?

    Also where does Karate and Wing Chun have similiar roots?




    Quote Originally Posted by Genetic View Post
    Yes, like the double handed fut sao (or fak sao) to simultaneously strike two conveniently placed opponents.

    Its a bit weird, but have you noticed how fak/fut sao is used differently in application than in SNT? Because in SNT it is about energy and not application.
    In application it is used like in the dummy form. I could go on but am wasting my time already.

    But if you say I lack understanding of the applications you must have some good reason for this. Other than my criticism of you missing the point of the form entirely.



    Or you could trap yourself into set sequences of moves. Shoehorning them into application when that is not really the point....

    Its a good idea, but I dont think you understand it.



    You seem to have some secret source of information about me. Alternatively you are basing your mistruths about me on your misguided perception.

    There are many applications of wing chun techniques, lets face it the potential combinations are limitless, so why try to limit them?

    Or is this how you cling to understanding, by putting things in arbitary lists?


    I've got an application for you. Fighting multiple oponents, one to your left tries a kick, which you stop with a gum sao. One to your right does the same, so you gum sao. Suddenly a third opponent approacehs you from the rear and tries a bear hug, but you quickly retract both arms, lift them with vigour, then bam - double gum sao. A fourth and fifth opponent suddely appears in front of you and both launch simultaneous flying knee strikes to your abdomen. Luckily you have this covered with a forward double gum sao. As they are moving towards you so fast, you quickly raise a double lan sao for cover. The first and second opponents to your sides suddenly wake up and come at you, but you are ready. You guessed it. Double fak sao!!!!! Bam, both of them drop to the floor twitching. Back to double lan sao when a roundhouse kick comes flying at you from the front. Double jum sao. I could go on but it is already absurd. Can you see my point?

    No, I didnt think so. The whole second section is about energy.

    Ah, but what about the third section, that is about application surely, sequences of moves. Wrong. It is about the movement from one shape to another. Tan moves forward, but also circles to the same position. Have you ever noticed that bong to tan has been missed out? I must be wrong, otherwise the form is incomplete.

    But you could think of it in terms of applications, say where you tan, change to guan, back to tan, huen and strike, but by my understanding this would be contrived. This is not the point. It is about transition between the main shapes, and the different types of motion. And structure and energy.

    It is not a karate kata!

    Im not going to make up any silly applications. I will leave this to you. Good luck with that. It is a strange way to interpret it. Kind of the way it gets presented in books aimed at people with little or no understanding of wing chun. Are these the books that you think I should read? Im simple sequences of static photos. Very useful I am sure.

    As to my understanding or comprehension of wing chun, you have no idea, your assumptions are rather pathetic and based on....what exactly?

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    4,699
    Quote Originally Posted by omarthefish View Post
    . . . Are asking them what all 3 characters together mean or just asking the last 2 because the parsing makes difference. 小念头 is confusing but 念头 can be found in any dictionary.

    Oh well.

    p.s. I think that translating the whole thing as "epiphany" works just fine. An epiphany is and idea that suddenly comes to you after all. I am just mystified that you would manage to find a Chinese speaker anywhere who did not recognize "lumtao" as a very common, everyday word for “idea".
    Yes, I asked about all three characters together. Thanks for getting me to ask the question again. Life is a constant learning process for me.
    Anyway, it seems that when all three are used together the meaning is a little different. I'll keep researching though.
    PR
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
    菲利普雷德蒙師傅
    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

    WCKwoon
    wck
    sifupr

  8. #53
    OK,


    So what is the different between

    0, Shao Lin's side outward block,
    1, Kyokushin's or other karate style's side outward block,
    2, White crane of Fujian's Water shape hand,
    and
    3, WCK's Tan sau?


    They all looks the same for me.

    and

    if we cant clearly and specifically describe the difference in a very simple way. then that means we dont know what is WCK right?
    Last edited by Hendrik; 03-31-2009 at 10:40 AM.

  9. #54
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    St.Louis Missouri
    Posts
    2,175
    Excellent Post.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    OK,


    So what is the different between

    0, Shao Lin's side outward block,
    1, Kyokushin's or other karate style's side outward block,
    2, White crane of Fujian's Water shape hand,
    and
    3, WCK's Tan sau?


    They all looks the same for me.

    and

    if we cant clearly and specifically describe the difference in a very simple way. then that means we dont know what is WCK right?

  10. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    Excellent Post.
    Praise the post is useless.

    Why dont you answer it?

  11. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    You keep saying Karate Kata?

    What is the purpose of Karate Kata's?

    Please enlightening me?
    Karate Katas are a sequence of movements practiced in the way that they would be used in application against imaginary opponent(s).

    Wing chun empty hand forms are a sequence of movements practiced to develop concepts or principles as opposed to applications.

  12. #57
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    22,250
    OK,


    So what is the different between

    0, Shao Lin's side outward block,
    1, Kyokushin's or other karate style's side outward block,
    2, White crane of Fujian's Water shape hand,
    and
    3, WCK's Tan sau?


    They all looks the same for me.
    Blocks aren't always blocks..

    Karate Katas are a sequence of movements practiced in the way that they would be used in application against imaginary opponent(s).
    Sometimes.

    Wing chun empty hand forms are a sequence of movements practiced to develop concepts or principles as opposed to applications.
    Sometimes.


    I guess karate and WC do have something in common
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  13. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Blocks aren't always blocks..


    this doesnt answer my questions at all.

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    4,699
    Tan doesn't meet the opponent's limb with force in one specific area of the arm as in some Karate blocks. Tan disperses contact with a limb over a larger surface area of the arm.
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
    菲利普雷德蒙師傅
    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

    WCKwoon
    wck
    sifupr

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    22,250
    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    this doesnt answer my questions at all.
    Actually, it does.
    You said:
    So what is the different between

    0, Shao Lin's side outward block,
    1, Kyokushin's or other karate style's side outward block,
    2, White crane of Fujian's Water shape hand,
    and
    3, WCK's Tan sau?


    They all looks the same for me.
    They aren't, they can be blocks, strikes or even "other things".

    You said:
    if we cant clearly and specifically describe the difference in a very simple way. then that means we dont know what is WCK right?
    The difference are that they are not the same, HOW they are NOT the same is a different question altogether and one that requires more than a "what's the answer" question because a question liek that is best answered with " It depends".
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •