Sil Lim Tau Applications?

[Yoshiyahu]

Karate Katas are a sequence of movements practiced in the way that they would be used in application against imaginary opponent(s).

Wing chun empty hand forms are a sequence of movements practiced to develop concepts or principles as opposed to applications.

I agree that your forms are used to develop concepts and principals. But Karate Katas also are used to develop concepts and principals along with proper distribution of enery and proper structure and alignment along with applications.

I would also contend that Sil Lim Tau trains
1.Internal Power
2.Short Power
3.Structure
4.Applications with an invisible opponent
5.Principals of Center Line
6.Utlizing two hands at once
7.Using one hand at a time

An much more.

SLT does all you say and more!

[Hendrik]

Actually, it does.
You said:


They aren't, they can be blocks, strikes or even "other things".

You said:


The difference are that they are not the same,

HOW they are NOT the same is a different question altogether and one that requires more than a "what's the answer" question

because a question liek that is best answered with " It depends".

OK, thanks for sharing your view. NOw you know what I am asking.




Could you be more specific on what do you mean by " a question liek that is best answered with " It depends""

not to mention, if it is this gray ( it depends, they are different things....) how do one knows one is training WCK?

[Hendrik]

I agree that your forms are used to develop concepts and principals. But Karate Katas also are used to develop concepts and principals along with proper distribution of enery and proper structure and alignment along with applications.

I would also contend that Sil Lim Tau trains
1.Internal Power
2.Short Power
3.Structure
4.Applications with an invisible opponent
5.Principals of Center Line
6.Utlizing two hands at once
7.Using one hand at a time

An much more.

SLT does all you say and more!

start from the first one, what is Internal Power? how to train?
What is short power?... what is structure ? ......

Please be specific what are these means?

[Hendrik]

Tan doesn't meet the opponent's limb with force in one specific area of the arm as in some Karate blocks. Tan disperses contact with a limb over a larger surface area of the arm.

Thanks! Good solid answer.

[omarthefish]

Back on topic....

Siu Lum Tau is not so much about applications. It mainly:

- teaches angles.
- refines the techniques.
- builds power.

Done right is can totally transform your body but mainly it's purpose seems to be to introduce and refine the entire basic concept of WC. Most people, including WC people, have extremely sloppy angles. They have no sense of "true north". They do not really understand the centerline and how to interact with it and from a WC perspective, have tons of bad habits and Siu Lum Tao is designed to correct all this.

It teaches you how to keep your elbows in and should be teaching you proper hand formation (not that any of the youtube vids show it). The people I know who really work the Siu Lum Tao have a technical precision to their WC that is on a whole nother level.

There's a few straight up applications here and there like the bong->tan->po bai series but I don't think that is the main purpose of SLT. It's main purpose is to improve power and technical precision.

[David Peterson]

There is more than one way to translate the character 'siu' (xiao) into English, but most only tend to go with the so-called "obvious" one...."small". However, the word can also refer to "young", as in one's younger age, so as a result the entire expression of 'siu nim tau' (xiao niantou) takes on a far more meaningful meaning when translated as "young idea" - this was in fact my late teacher's preferred interpretation.

A "small" idea sounds insignificant, unimportant, ...not really worth taking note of or putting much effort into - besides, what is the difference between a "small" idea and a "big" one??? Surely an idea (or thought) is an idea, plain and simple. On the other hand, a "young" idea conjurs up images of something extremely meaningful, a starting point from which great potential is possible. Whilst I have no issue with the "epiphany" translation, to the average Chinese, the "young idea" makes perfectly good sense as the beginning of great things to come.

'Siu Nim Tau' form is therefore, from the perspective of the WSL Method of Wing Chun, the origin and foundation from which all that makes Wing Chun work as a combat system first begins to take form in both the mind and the body of the practitioner. Like a computer which is full of badly stored or faulty information, we are "re-imaging" our personal "hard-drive" (our mind & body), so as to re-program ourselves with the structures, concepts, strategies, power source, mind-set, "feeling" and "tools" that make up the Wing Chun method and enable us to find our highest potential in the system, eventually leading to personal growth and expression.

Like a young and insignificant sapling, with the right nurturing, it can be transformed into a mighty giant in the forest. Thus, the 'Siu Nim Tau' ("young idea") is the means by which we learn to grow as Wing Chun practitioners.
DMP

[Yoshiyahu]

I totally agree...There are infinite possible applications found in Sil Lim Tao.


I am overjoyed that a few people shared some of their applications below:

Back on topic....There's a few straight up applications here and there like the bong->tan->po bai series but I don't think that is the main purpose of SLT. It's main purpose is to improve power and technical precision.

There are endless applications of motions from the slt plus the structural and other benefits
from the slt.

joy chaudhuri

So hey guys any time your ready please share some of your applications?

For instance:


When you punch and Huen Sau.

One can look at it this way. You punch a guy who intercepts and grabs your wrist and before he can apply a lock or chin na you circle the wrist and then free your hand or reverse the lock.

What are some other Applications of SLT?

How about you punch, he paks, you huen sau (spelling???) and punch again. (continuous attack.)

or you punch, he paks, and you huen sau and lop if his hand is still there.

The options are limitless.

just quickly

the lee shing lineage snt that i have been taught int he 1st section has punch, tan, huen, fingers 'scrape' to eyes. in theabove scenario:

punch is blocked with a tan. you perform huen sau to get around it and are stopped whilst still on the outside. the finger scrape is done and hopefully catches the eye! might not end the fight but it will (at least momentarily) end his vision) it also has a use for when you use bui sau and it is compromised by you either attacking the wrong space, or them trapping your movement.

will possibly share a bit more later...

Useful applications from SLT? All of them. Plus the energetics (body mechanics and structure). Broad subject area much?

The crossing, finding the centreline, at the start is similar to the mechanics of the basic cross collar choke in gi (or as Mouthboy108 would call it, the kymono) grappling.

The gum/tan section simulates the action of guillotine choke, hanging choke and several other standing chokes.

The fut sao section (eye sweeps) have applications for cutting armbars and the like.

Grappling applications in SLT? Well well. Of course just doing the form won't help you apply these in an actual encounter.

You asked for three. Now stop bothering me and return to the search for those St Louis underground fighting clubs.

What a monster topic and were off to rocky start, my SLT ends with Bong Sau, Joh Sau (like a flat/ horizontal Tan, in shape) then an upsidedown Palm strike followed by tut sau then lin wan kuen...

Howabout we just start with the obvious useful actions of SLT, Punching !

I find leanring the straight punch to be very useful, my sifu had told me so.

DREW

If you have applications for fighting found in Sil Lim Tao please share it?

If you don't any applications then please no need to share!

[Hendrik]

Done right is can totally transform your body but mainly it's purpose seems to be to introduce and refine the entire basic concept of WC.

.

The issues are what it is and what is right when the world fill with all kind of ideas..

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . 'Siu Nim Tau' form is therefore, from the perspective of the WSL Method of Wing Chun, the origin and foundation from which all that makes Wing Chun work as a combat system first begins to take form in both the mind and the body of the practitioner. Like a computer which is full of badly stored or faulty information, we are "re-imaging" our personal "hard-drive" (our mind & body), so as to re-program ourselves with the structures, concepts, strategies, power source, mind-set, "feeling" and "tools" that make up the Wing Chun method and enable us to find our highest potential in the system, eventually leading to personal growth and expression.

Like a young and insignificant sapling, with the right nurturing, it can be transformed into a mighty giant in the forest. Thus, the 'Siu Nim Tau' ("young idea") is the means by which we learn to grow as Wing Chun practitioners.
DMP

Si-Bak Wong's explanation was based on his understanding Wing Chun and that isn't a bad thing. But I specifically wanted to ask Chinese scholars who had no knowledge of martial arts or Wing Chun in particular. I only reported the answers I received from them based on the three characters I showed them. Their answers were consistent across the board. What else can I say??

[Katsu Jin Ken]

ok lets do Chum Kiu

Q. what are the throwing wings towards the end of the form used for?

A.???IMO to train the shifting of weight putting power in the ground.

[bakxierboxer]

Si-Bak Wong's explanation was based on his understanding Wing Chun and that isn't a bad thing. But I specifically wanted to ask Chinese scholars who had no knowledge of martial arts or Wing Chun in particular. I only reported the answers I received from them based on the three characters I showed them. Their answers were consistent across the board. What else can I say??

An earlier poster touched on the idea of "youth", but I think he just didn't go back quite far enough....

Might I suggest "seed" and/or "germ"? (of the idea)

[omarthefish]

Si-Bak Wong's explanation was based on his understanding Wing Chun and that isn't a bad thing. But I specifically wanted to ask Chinese scholars who had no knowledge of martial arts or Wing Chun in particular. I only reported the answers I received from them based on the three characters I showed them. Their answers were consistent across the board. What else can I say??

That's your two problems right there.

I can see why you would think that presenting the question that way would give you a perhaps....more educated or less prejudiced view but when you get into the linguistics of the thing, you realize that that's just a good way to guarantee that you will get an UNeducated answer and one that makes no sense.

Problem 1.
The term "Siu Lum Tao" is a title. It's not a word at all. By removing the context you remove the reader's (the Chinese professors in this case) ability to make any sense of the collection of characters. The best you can hope for is a very literal reading which is really the absolute worst kind. It's the kind of reading that leads to all the Chinglish errors that I actually like to collect as a hobby because they are so comically wrong. Things like this:

Problem 2.
You have a parsing error. It is not 3 words. It is 2. It should be read Siu lum-tao. Get it? If you give those same people just the last two characters to read/translate, 念头, I guarantee that they will readily identify the term.

Chinese words are defined by context. Unlike English, there are no spaces between the words to indicate where one word ends and another begins. It'snotasconfusingasonemightthink. Ifyoureanativespeakeryoujustgetusedtoit. But by presenting two words as_one you have, in effect, asked them:

What does 'asone' mean?

Would you recognize the "word" asone without any context?

[CFT]

Even with the martial context it may mean nothing; you really need to know that it is Wing Chun Kuen's first form and that all the other forms "develop" on the idea(s) in the first form.

Question for David Peterson: "Wouldn't the character for 'siu' (young) be the other one"? e.g. the "shao" in Shaolin.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . .
Problem 1.
The term "Siu Lum Tao" is a title. It's not a word at all. . . .

I studied Cantonese for three years in college so I know that Chinese is monosyllabic.
And actually I prefer to use nihm as opposed to lim/lum. But thanks anyway.

[CFT]

I studied Cantonese for three years in college so I know that Chinese is monosyllabic.
And actually I prefer to use nihm as opposed to lim/lum. But thanks anyway.

Phil, we're dinosaurs. The way of the future is "lim" due to the growth in lazy sounds (lahn yum).