How real traditional kung fu was taught?

[jmd161]

The more you learn about CMA the more you realize you don't know. You hear and see so many different things... you don't know what is truth or fiction anymore. The more I train with my sifu, who is very traditional. The more I see the way we've come to visualize CMA and it's training methods are completely wrong.

In 99% of CMA schools the students are taught forms and very little time, if any, is spent on actual application. If any sparring is done, it's usually a badly taught half ass basic kick boxing method. Many people some how believe that learning this way is traditional and one day they will some how see everything clearly.

When you look at today's kung fu schools you see two separate methods being taught. In the majority of schools you see the forms with little application, and then there's the schools that teach Sanshou. Of course then comes the debate on who's traditional the forms collectors or the sanshou people?

The truth of the matter is they're both traditional, but lacking in certain areas. In speaking with old timers from Hong Kong and China traditional CMA is Sanshou and forms taught together, but, only after you've learned some Sanshou to defend yourself. In today's CMA they openly teach you forms but offer no substance after you learn a form. Usually after learning one form you're pushed to start learning the next form and so on.

This brings up a question my sifu asked me.

" People want to make lots of money off teaching Chinese martial arts, but they choose to teach crap...Why Not teach the real thing and show it actually works and make even more money?"

Good question, I can't seem to come up with a good answer though...


jeff

[banditshaw]

I think the majority of people that flock to CMA's don't want to do the hard work and would rather be fed the fantasyland bullcrap. As soon as these peeps get smacked in the face, thrown around, get bruised ego's and limbs...... they quit. It seems they would rather play patty cake and prance around in pajamas.
The movies and the Kung Fu Tv show have a lot to do with some of the false myths propagated.

[Drake]

I'd say it's hard to use terms like "majority" and "99%" without some real research. Generalizations are useless. What styles have been known to teach impractical methods? How long has this been going on? What determines if a technique is useless, if it fails in one scenario? Is brawling an effective way of teaching if it's the majority of the learning? Do forms have a place in training, and if so, are thye over/underutilized?

Let's try and be a bit more systematic in our assessments.

[jmd161]

I'd say it's hard to use terms like "majority" and "99%" without some real research. Generalizations are useless. What styles have been known to teach impractical methods? How long has this been going on? What determines if a technique is useless, if it fails in one scenario? Is brawling an effective way of teaching if it's the majority of the learning? Do forms have a place in training, and if so, are thye over/underutilized?

Let's try and be a bit more systematic in our assessments.

Are you serious?

Or is this just an attempt to debate for the sake of debating?


Yes I was very general in my post, If you've been involved in CMA I don't really have to be more forth coming because you would know exactly where I'm coming from. If you've read any martial arts forums you'd understand where I'm coming from as well....

I obviously want to discuss this... but, I don't want to write a two page post on the same stuff that has been covered on every forum already either. I'm sure many here will know what I'm talking about. I'm sorry If you don't, which means you couldn't really participate in this discussion anyway...



jeff

[WinterPalm]

You have to consider that many people are doing just what you're suggesting: and here on this forum they get ragged on for not being TCMA enough.

[YouKnowWho]

Today people think about TCMA training is not the true TCMA training. The true TCMA training are:

- Drill "1 step 3 punches" for 3 years.
- Go to the woods and use your shoulder dropping to break 1,000 tree branches.
- Set up a fence pole and use your feet to sweep it until it's out of the ground.
- Crack on steel chain until the spark come out of it.
- ...

[jmd161]

You have to consider that many people are doing just what you're suggesting: and here on this forum they get ragged on for not being TCMA enough.

You also have to take into account, who's doing the ragging!


You have many people on forums that only experience of martial arts, is the movies they've seen and web pages they've read

In my experience I have seen schools that do this, but they are few and far between. I work in the airline Industry, so it allows me to travel and meet many a martial artist, and visit many different schools.


jeff

[jmd161]

I commend Mr. Ross on what he is doing with teaching fighting and Sanda. I want to know why aren't more doing this, and why isn't Mr. Ross taking some of his top fighters and now teaching them the forms, so they have a better understanding of the forms and techniques?


I could very well be wrong, and Mr. Ross might already be doing this...


I really feel most schools don't do this because the skills and techniques have already been lost. If you learn from someone that has never fought and they learned from someone who never fought...How could they teach you to fight?

Who knows, maybe my sifu has it all wrong and is breaking the trend... He always teaches to evolve and keep testing the art and make changes where needed. According to him this is traditional and the exact way his sifu taught him. In creating Hak Fu Mun So Hak Fu took the knowledge of 17 different styles of kung fu and created the 5 original forms. Later At his school in Canton he taught well over 50 forms. When Grandmaster Wong Cheung died in 1989 Hak Fu Mun had over 100 forms.

I think when the fighting stopped and people tried to keep things secret they misunderstood what keeping secret meant. It didn't mean to not test or share.... since most styles where created from the blending of different styles and meeting of masters.

Again, I could be completely wrong too....


jeff

[TenTigers]

Forms were taught last and usually only to lineage bearors in many cases.(Unless they were specific training sets designed to develop structure, breath, power, etc.(sam bo ging, saamjien, siu-lim tau, etc)
There was an interview with a descendant of Yang Lu-Chan, who said that the form wasn't taught at all. Just applications, push hands and fighting. The short sequences(single whip, brush knee, etc) practiced later, and the form wasn't taught until it was taught to the public.

Here's a newsflash-people LIKE hitting things.
Bag drills are fun, and a great workout. People LIKE putting on handwraps, bag gloves and hitting the pads. They feel that they are developing real skills.(they also like buying them. Owning fight gear is like owning a gun or something. It's empowering.)
They ENJOY sparring-in a safe enviornment, taught in a methodical manner.
It develops confidense-which is why they came in the first place.

[jmd161]

Forms were taught last and usually only to lineage bearors in many cases.(Unless they were specific training sets designed to develop structure, breath, power, etc.(sam bo ging, saamjien, siu-lim tau, etc)

This I can believe because this is exactly what my sifu does. We learn a lot of techniques from all the forms, but we rarely learn an actual form until he feels you're ready. By the time you actually learn a form you've already drilled many of the techniques hundreds of times already. I've also come to realize in actual fighting systems there is not much hidden with in the forms like many lead you to believe. If anything the technique might just be used in a different manner in the form.





jeff

[Shaolin of Old]

What do you think Traditional kung fu would look like if trained propery like it used to be? Is what wong kiew kit doing right? i dont think it is but just curious, in actual combat what would it look like would it be similar to modern day sanda or totally different? Just wondering what your opinion is if you have seen some real kung fu schools? I think it certainly would be with what i have seen but just curious what you think traditional kung fu would look like in sparring.

[jmd161]

What do you think Traditional kung fu would look like if trained propery like it used to be? Is what wong kiew kit doing right? i dont think it is but just curious, in actual combat what would it look like would it be similar to modern day sanda or totally different? Just wondering what your opinion is if you have seen some real kung fu schools? I think it certainly would be with what i have seen but just curious what you think traditional kung fu would look like in sparring.

I've said before I think actual CMA sparring and fighting would look a lot like MMA fights, but with some variations of course. WHEN WE MOVE YOU SEE WHAT WE ARE DOING THERE'S NO HIDDEN SECRET TECHNIQUE. sorry I hit the caps button by mistake. You see the difference in the movement and the foot work. You see us stepping in and locking the legs or attacking the legs while our hands are in use.

One of my training brothers recently went to a MMA gym here in Miami and held his own against two guys both over 6'2' he's 5'7' and over 200 he's about 140 even though the guys turned out to be jerks and ruptured his ear drum. When you fight like you train the body doesn't need to result to old bad habits or bad basic lvl kick boxing.

I don't think what Wong Kiew kit does is right either, but, that's just my opinion. You fight in what works for you not some pre-fashioned stance. Just my .02 cents


jeff

[Shaolin of Old]

I've said before I think actual CMA sparring and fighting would look a lot like MMA fights, but with some variations of course. WHEN WE MOVE YOU SEE WHAT WE ARE DOING THERE'S NO HIDDEN SECRET TECHNIQUE. sorry I hit the caps button by mistake. You see the difference in the movement and the foot work. You see us stepping in and locking the legs or attacking the legs while our hands are in use.

One of my training brothers recently went to a MMA gym here in Miami and held his own against two guys both over 6'2' he's 5'7' and over 200 he's about 140 even though the guys turned out to be jerks and ruptured his ear drum. When you fight like you train the body doesn't need to result to old bad habits or bad basic lvl kick boxing.

I don't think what Wong Kiew kit does is right either, but, that's just my opinion. You fight in what works for you not some pre-fashioned stance. Just my .02 cents


jeff

Yeah i think you make a valid point, its an interesting one to say the least. Im thinking more we engage the more our punches and kicks look like any other however the principles and intent can be different hence the different footwork or movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVVGZEFQusM

Bruce lee above sparring, of course he wasn't traditional but he has a unique way of doing things compared to your general kickboxer, how similar or different is traditional kung fu?

[jmd161]

Yeah i think you make a valid point, its an interesting one to say the least. Im thinking more we engage the more our punches and kicks look like any other however the principles and intent can be different hence the different footwork or movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVVGZEFQusM

Bruce lee above sparring, of course he wasn't traditional but he has a unique way of doing things compared to your general kickboxer, how similar or different is traditional kung fu?

In looking at that video we are much different, but it was more of a demo in my opinion than actual sparring. I train Black Tiger we are very aggressive and never really use kicks above the waist. We attack the legs relentlessly while striking and we rarely take steps backwards. We attack in coming attacks so speed and power is of the impotence. In Black Tiger defense is offense so we block by striking very rarely will you see an attempt to block. Once we commit to attack we don't play that strike and wait game, we keep coming.

My sifu knew Bruce in Hong Kong and says Bruce wasn't very good when he left HK. He says that Bruce did get much better and what made the difference was his learning to effectively use his short power.

jeff

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I commend Mr. Ross on what he is doing with teaching fighting and Sanda. I want to know why aren't more doing this, and why isn't Mr. Ross taking some of his top fighters and now teaching them the forms, so they have a better understanding of the forms and techniques?


I could very well be wrong, and Mr. Ross might already be doing this...


I really feel most schools don't do this because the skills and techniques have already been lost. If you learn from someone that has never fought and they learned from someone who never fought...How could they teach you to fight?

Who knows, maybe my sifu has it all wrong and is breaking the trend... He always teaches to evolve and keep testing the art and make changes where needed. According to him this is traditional and the exact way his sifu taught him. In creating Hak Fu Mun So Hak Fu took the knowledge of 17 different styles of kung fu and created the 5 original forms. Later At his school in Canton he taught well over 50 forms. When Grandmaster Wong Cheung died in 1989 Hak Fu Mun had over 100 forms.

I think when the fighting stopped and people tried to keep things secret they misunderstood what keeping secret meant. It didn't mean to not test or share.... since most styles where created from the blending of different styles and meeting of masters.

Again, I could be completely wrong too....


jeff

Reply]
All the original usage of Kung Fu was preserved in Indonesia. That is why everyone respects all these Kuntao Silat guys.