How real traditional kung fu was taught?

[Eddie]

Ok, I apologise if I seemed a little harsh, this wasn’t my intention. I’m not angry at all, and certainly not nitpicking, sorry if you think that.

My problem is just, we are always being told that we do it wrong, no matter what we do. There are always people accusing everyone of not knowing the real things, or of simply doing a form of ‘glorified kickboxing’, or … yada yada yada. Personally I just think this is getting a little old. I’m also just curious now about what REAL kung fu is actually looking like.

Ok, instead of attacking you, let me clear this up for you. I am simply attacking two points you made. Number one, the percentage you claim, 99% - this is a big number. So for every 100 people on this site, only 1 is doing it right. So if there are a million people practicing martial arts, only ten thousand of them are doing it right? That claim is a little harsh, and borders on arrogance, hence my comment. Was not directed at you personally – I don’t actually know you. So I’m mostly trying to debate this line of thought.

We all like to believe that we are doing it right, even if we don’t. We don’t want to hear that we have been spending hundreds of thousands of hours practicing the wrong methods.

Btw – I didn’t criticise your spelling at all.

[jmd161]

We all like to believe that we are doing it right, even if we don’t. We don’t want to hear that we have been spending hundreds of thousands of hours practicing the wrong methods.

Eddie,

I think this is a big problem in martial arts. No one wants to hear I've been doing this for 10 yrs and you mean it's not the real thing? It's better to hear it from someone on a forum than to find out from the guy in the street with your life at his mercy!

When I was young I watched every street fight I could. Not because I wanted to see who would win, but because I wanted to see what would happen in those fights.

(1) What did the winner do that the loser didn't?

(2) What happened if one fighter was much more skilled than the other?

(3) What position/hold/lock could the loser not escape?

I then went home and had my friends apply these moves on me...My friends thought I was cray! I wasn't crazy I had seen a fight where a kid about 15 was at the mercy of his attacker another kid about the same age. I saw the look in his eyes and I knew right then and there I never wanted to be in that position, if I could help it.

That is when I turned to learning martial arts and spent yrs and hrs learning forms and kicks and punches, but had only a handful of techniques I could actually use. I still kept training thinking one day all these forms will pay off and I'd somehow become a fighter and could defend my family and myself, if I had to. I was fooling myself for yrs. It is because of this I try to open peoples eyes and make them look at what they are doing. If you aren't drilling techniques and spending lots of time on application you need to question it. No matter what people tell you there is always a martial aspect to CMA. But people preach the art of not fighting not because they don't want people to get hurt. They preach it so you can't see for yourself they aren't what they claim to be.

Btw – I didn’t criticise your spelling at all.

I know you didn't I was just throwing that in there because I've seen people take a thread off topic with such things as not using proper spelling. That wasn't really directed to you, but others that might have tried to derail the thread.


jeff

[Eddie]

I agree that you need to fight to improve your skill, and I am sure many Martial Artists believe the same.

So let me get this right. What is your view on forms training?

[jmd161]

What is your view on forms training?

I think forms are a tool box full of tools that you use to get the job done. I think forms are intended to be a guide on how you should move not how you should fight. Forms are for passing on a styles techniques, concepts and theroies with how you should move with speed and power.

The problem is that forms are not played that way in many styles. People change techniques to make them more pretty for demostrations. After sometime the demo form becomes the only form taught and techniques are lost. I think forms should be taught after you have at least a basic understanding of self defense. By this I mean taking techniques from the forms and drilling them and applying them giving the student useful stuff for all ranges. Then after this is achived you give them new techniques to drill and apply. But what they don't know is you're actually teaching them the first form broken down in to drills and applications.

Then as you teach them the form you point the techniques out that they drilled and worked on. Now they see and understand 1. How to use the technique 2. Why they use the technique and 3. when to use the technique.

When, Why and How!

this is the way my sifu teaches and I would have it no other way. I'll be the first to admit I almost quit several times because it was too hard. We all say we want the real deal when it comes to CMA but the real deal is not easy or fun. What makes it fun is when you move and use it, and there is no doubt that it works. Then all the pain and bruises are worth it.

jeff

[lkfmdc]

My problem is just, we are always being told that we do it wrong, no matter what we do. There are always people accusing everyone of not knowing the real things, or of simply doing a form of ‘glorified kickboxing’, or … yada yada yada. Personally I just think this is getting a little old. I’m also just curious now about what REAL kung fu is actually looking like.

it's 2009 and kung fu is no longer secret and underground. We have the internet, we have video, we have YOUTUBE

Why is it that you can't find a single clip of someone fighting, when the fighting is for REAL, like the "kung fu purists" insist it should look like? Pretty basic question isn't it? Of the millions of people doing it and the wide access to it, why can't you point out a SINGLE CLIP - not a demo, not point sparring, not a fake TV staged fight, but a REAL FIGHT WITH CONTACT

[Drake]

it's 2009 and kung fu is no longer secret and underground. We have the internet, we have video, we have YOUTUBE

Why is it that you can't find a single clip of someone fighting, when the fighting is for REAL, like the "kung fu purists" insist it should look like? Pretty basic question isn't it? Of the millions of people doing it and the wide access to it, why can't you point out a SINGLE CLIP - not a demo, not point sparring, not a fake TV staged fight, but a REAL FIGHT WITH CONTACT

1:Oh crap, John's in a fight with those thugs. Quick, videotape it!!

2:But shouldn't we be helping him fi-

1:I SAID F&*^ING VIDEOTAPE IT!!!

[lkfmdc]

1:Oh crap, John's in a fight with those thugs. Quick, videotape it!!

2:But shouldn't we be helping him fi-

1:I SAID F&*^ING VIDEOTAPE IT!!!

so, Kung Fu only works in life and death deadly street combat?

and while it works on the street, with no rules, under extreme stress, it never seems to work when a kung fu guy gets in a ring or a cage and has a regular old, "just sport" match

Not to mention the fact you can find HUNDREDS, maybe THOUSANDS of street fights on YOUTUBE yet NONE of them look like kung fu as the "purists" would lead you to believe

or, in conlusion, teh fail

[Drake]

Hell, I dunno. When I fight I just try and disable the guy whichever way I can in the shortest time possible. I HAVE found that overwhelming force and violence of action work wonders.

[lkfmdc]

Hell, I dunno. When I fight I just try and disable the guy whichever way I can in the shortest time possible. I HAVE found that overwhelming force and violence of action work wonders.

you mean you don't circle them, making hand gestures, calling out each animal, just before you disable them with a chi blast?

[Drake]

you mean you don't circle them, making hand gestures, calling out each animal, just before you disable them with a chi blast?

I use elegant, ancient techniques, such as the choke slam, head punch, and various beautiful, flowery moves to cut off circulation to the brain.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Forms were taught last and usually only to lineage bearors in many cases.(Unless they were specific training sets designed to develop structure, breath, power, etc.(sam bo ging, saamjien, siu-lim tau, etc)
There was an interview with a descendant of Yang Lu-Chan, who said that the form wasn't taught at all. Just applications, push hands and fighting. The short sequences(single whip, brush knee, etc) practiced later, and the form wasn't taught until it was taught to the public.

Here's a newsflash-people LIKE hitting things.
Bag drills are fun, and a great workout. People LIKE putting on handwraps, bag gloves and hitting the pads. They feel that they are developing real skills.(they also like buying them. Owning fight gear is like owning a gun or something. It's empowering.)
They ENJOY sparring-in a safe enviornment, taught in a methodical manner.
It develops confidense-which is why they came in the first place.

Someone has groin kicked the correct.

[MightyB]

MMA is cool, but now I'm thinking it's becoming too g@y. Too much focus on sporting rage and no substance- having thugs pound the $hit out of each other- it's not really that accessible and it's really more like TMA than it cares to admit.

Judo can be sweet, but it's falling victim to it's own success- Judo was a better form of Ju-Jitsu- basically Ju-Jitsu simplified for effectiveness and Randori. It started to become BJJ even before BJJ existed, but- for some crazy reason (sport) the Kodokan put limits on Newaza and all of the gains that could've been made because of the Kozen school ceased and had to wait for the Brazilians to do their thing.

TCMA- it's getting old. Just like Judo, just like MMA will become. But- we do see that because of MMA- TCMA is getting better. Is it effective in MMA? Who the frig knows 'cuz UFC style is UFC style. Pure BJJ isn't represented anymore, Thai Boxing, wrestling, etc it's really not in MMA cuz it's UFC style kung fu.

Kung Fu works- if you have an open mind. TCMA is supposed to be a mishmash of styles. Think about it- what is Mantis, Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut? Basically any TCMA- they're mishmashes of different styles.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Kung Fu works- if you have an open mind. TCMA is supposed to be a mishmash of styles. Think about it- what is Mantis, Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut? Basically any TCMA- they're mishmashes of different styles.

Blasphemy !!
Crazy talk !!
Sure its true, but don't be bringing truth into this !!

[lkfmdc]

you need to constantly test your stuff

if you are content with where you are now, you are actually moving backward

if you are content because in the past someone did something, well, it really means nothing

"MMA" is this incarnation of the cycle, but think back to the 60's when a bunch of Americans said "point sux" and created kickboxing, only to discover that Muay Thai is reall kickboxing.

Heck, go back to Maeda and the other Kodokan challenges, heck to the police college matches where PEOPLE DIED

in TCMA go back to the days of Lei Tai, when you had to put up or shut up. But that was over 100 years ago really

[lkfmdc]

Blasphemy !!
Crazy talk !!
Sure its true, but don't be bringing truth into this !!

glorified kickboxer!