Dong Haichuan was a eunuch

[photo-master]

http://combatbaguazhang.com/Graveyard.html

The late Baguazhang great master Mr. Li Ziming just before his death wrote an article called � Concerning the enigma of Dong Haichuan’s life experience’s � he mentioned: � After mastering his art Dong Haichuan devoted himself in the Tai Ping Heavenly Secret Organization (Taiping Rebellion) and to accomplish his mission to infiltrate Beijing, he had to serve as castrate servant in a famous mansion, being their secret agent and awaiting an opportunity to kill the King Xianfeng, later the Taiping Rebellion was defeated and the organization was dismantled, the King Xianfeng became ill and finally died, Dong decided to stay under his cover inside the walls of the Governing city.
There are in fact different opinions about the reasons which led Dong to serve as an eunuch in Su Wang mansion. Since 1883, date of the death of Dong, there are many documents which unfortunately will not be found nowadays to confirm with certitude any version.
But we can however compare with the two major motivations which led someone to serve as eunuch servant at the time of Dong Haiquan:
a) to avoid poverty, many Chinese decided for castration,
b) to avoid from sentence of death after having committed serious crime, castration was the only issue.
In autumn 1928, Wang Laisheng wrote in “Notes on Wushu”: “Dong Haichuan after having committed a serious offence to the law, was submitted to castration. He later was enrolled as an eunuch servant…” which is the very plausible possibility as knowing Don Haiquan’s impetuosity and passion for duels.

[GeneChing]

Search eunuch. Or here, just go to Dong's entry on the Tales of great practitioners thread...

[photo-master]

We've discussed Dong's lack of dong.

LOL... Thanks, Gene...

[Zenshiite]

Also, not everyone subscribes to that particular take on Dong's legend.

In Zhang Jie's book Liu Bin's Zhuang Gong Bagua Zhang he suggests that Dong Hai Chuan had in fact mastered the Taoist ability to retract his junk back into his body.

[photo-master]

Also, not everyone subscribes to that particular take on Dong's legend.

I respect your thoughts. However on Dong Haichuan's tomb, the first stele (1883): "The life of Dong Haichuan" by Yin Fu

..."Unexpectedly reaching middle age, he will be forced to follow the unorthodox way of Si Maqian (famous Chinese historian and poet who was submitted to castration), to serve as an eunuch servant inside a palace."

It seems Yin Fu would know, and if not true he would not have it inscribed on his Master's epitaph.

[TenTigers]

there was a story about a BaGua master who used to go to the local brothel, satisfy all the women without expending his jing on a regular basis.
Apparantly, it was not Dong Hai Chuan. Any idea who it was?
(And did he leave a manual?)

[Zenshiite]

I respect your thoughts. However on Dong Haichuan's tomb, the first stele (1883): "The life of Dong Haichuan" by Yin Fu

..."Unexpectedly reaching middle age, he will be forced to follow the unorthodox way of Si Maqian (famous Chinese historian and poet who was submitted to castration), to serve as an eunuch servant inside a palace."

It seems Yin Fu would know, and if not true he would not have it inscribed on his Master's epitaph.

As I understand it the inscription actually reads "pretending to be a eunuch."

At any rate, do you even realize the effect that castration has on a man? I find it doubtful that Dong Hai Chuan would've been a eunuch considering the effect the massive drop in testosterone has on eunuchs historically.

As I said, not my thoughts... the idea that Dong could retract his testicles is also a widespread myth amongts Bagua people. Furthermore, the guy who wrote the book I mentioned would likely be in the know as well, he's a lineage holder through Liu Xing-Han directly to Cheng Ting Hua. Plus, you know, he's been to the grave too. So...

All I'm saying is... it's not impossible, I find it highly improbable considering, but there's more than one story out there. As with most martial arts founders.

[photo-master]

As I understand it the inscription actually reads "pretending to be a eunuch."

Zen, Can you find me a link or a book (title) which corroborates this translation, "pretending to be a eunuch." I'd love to have it.

[photo-master]

http://wangshuchin.blogspot.com/2008...g-haiquan.html The Book: http://www.amazon.com/Bagua-Linked-P...9995038&sr=1-1

"...The legend of Dong Haiquan becoming a eunuch is a bit more difficult to dismiss out of hand. This story has been retold by third and fourth generation practitioners of Bagua Zhang but not, significantly, by first generation students. There is also no evidence in imperial or local court records of Dong’s forced castration. Castration was known as a common punishment in Chinese history up through the Sui Dynasty, but it was rarely used in the Ming and Ching eras except in extreme cases.

There are several stories about how Dong Haiquan became known as a eunuch. According to the story on his tombstone, he pretended to be a eunuch in order to enter into service in the residence of a Manchu prince. Another such tale has him pretending to be a eunuch in order to assassinate the emperor (a plot which obviously failed). There is yet another story which has Dong actually undergoing the operation on his on volition in order to obtain employment in the palace. Finally, there is Wang Shujin’s version that has Dong involuntarily castrated for some unspecified crime. With a decided lack of corroborating evidence, we are left with examining a few facts about eunuchs to see if they might fit the picture of a great martial artist like Dong Haiquan.

Eunuchs (taijian) were employed in the imperial palace as advisors and servants of the inner circle of the emperor, and especially as retainers for emperor’s concubines and female relatives. They were trusted because of their inability to participate in sexual congress with the ladies of the court. Eunuchs came to their calling voluntarily. Self-inflicted eunuchoidism is a condition involving the surgical removal of the *****, scrotum, and testes. This complete castration of the male genitalia in young males blocked the production of testosterone and the onset of puberty. The lack of testosterone production left eunuchs with: high pitched voices; flaccid musculature; soft rounded bellies; a lack of facial and body hair; and somewhat feminine features. Eunuchs also tended to age prematurely, so a man of forty often looked like one of sixty. Eunuchs were easily identified by their unique appearance. They were also roundly despised by the general population and were often objects of derision and caricature.

No eunuchs in Chinese history were ever known to be soldiers, palace guards, or martial artists. Dong Haiquan, on the other hand, was described as an unusually strong and robust figure with the “back of a horse.” His reputed great strength, agility, and athletic prowess would seem to fly in the face of accusations of his being a eunuch. There is also the matter of his great success in attracting some of Beijing’s best young martial artists to his inner circle. It is difficult to see how a eunuch, universally reviled among the citizenry, could ever achieve such a feat."


I hope this helps... Now I have to preorder this book. What do you guys think about this excerpt?

P.S. As a side note I find it funny this forum censors the scientific word p-e-n-i-s.

[Zenshiite]

This forum censors alot of stuff. Like the Name D-I-C-K-E-Y, see ****ey.

What you posted is interesting, particularly because of what it says about eunuchs. They aren't exactly known for their martial strength outside of popular fiction or wuxia movies. The operation is so devastating to the male system, and given how much importance has been placed on seminal essence in Taoist energy arts. If, as many of the legends say, Dong Hai Chuan became a eunuch after having attempted to be a Taoist monk/adept and getting kicked out of the temple for impetuance... I just can't see a guy who was schooled in Taoist energy arts willingly cutting his nuts off for the sake of hiding in the palace for whatever reason.