WC's Ground Game

[dirtyrat]

Interesting thread.

From a historical point of view, its possible the practitioners were knowledgable of ditang methods, or more likely they never expected to be unarmed. If wing chun fighters were originally rebels trying to overthrow the government of their day than these guys were playing for keeps. Unarmed, hand to hand combat would've been the last thing they would resort to. And it would be foolhardy to grapple a knifefigther.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Interesting thread.

From a historical point of view, its possible the practitioners were knowledgable of ditang methods, or more likely they never expected to be unarmed. If wing chun fighters were originally rebels trying to overthrow the government of their day than these guys were playing for keeps. Unarmed, hand to hand combat would've been the last thing they would resort to. And it would be foolhardy to grapple a knifefigther.

Well reasoned.

[Knifefighter]

Interesting thread.

From a historical point of view, its possible the practitioners were knowledgable of ditang methods, or more likely they never expected to be unarmed. If wing chun fighters were originally rebels trying to overthrow the government of their day than these guys were playing for keeps. Unarmed, hand to hand combat would've been the last thing they would resort to. And it would be foolhardy to grapple a knifefigther.

More often than not, if you engage someone who has a knife, you will end up grappling, so understanding how to grapple with a blade would not be foolhardy at all.

As far as from a historical point of view, people who developed primarily weapons-based systems also tended to develop some type of shielding and/or armor to go with that weaponry.

[Knifefighter]

Dude, how many MMA matches (especially in the old days of the UFC) have you seen where the BJJ guy latches onto his opponent while in the guard and waits him out, patiently waiting for the other guy to give him an opeining? There've been times when the ref had to break up the fight after a long time because nothing was happening.

Newsflash... that only happened during the times when the other guy's defense was good enough to keep the BJJ guy from forcing his game on him. The main strategy of BJJ is takedown, mount, strike, choke. Everything else is secondary to that.

And yeah, If I can avoid going to the ground in the first place, I'd rather be able to do that than deliberately take the fight to the ground & wrestle around on concrete.

Sometimes it's best to keep things standing... sometimes it's better to take it to the ground... sometimes you don't have a choice and one or the other just happens.

[m1k3]

Dude, how many MMA matches (especially in the old days of the UFC) have you seen where the BJJ guy latches onto his opponent while in the guard and waits him out, patiently waiting for the other guy to give him an opeining? There've been times when the ref had to break up the fight after a long time because nothing was happening.

And yeah, If I can avoid going to the ground in the first place, I'd rather be able to do that than deliberately take the fight to the ground & wrestle around on concrete.

But apparently you're the expert, so please expound.

1. BJJ does NOT teach you to deliberately take the fight to the ground all the time. There are a large number of techniques for standing, especially if you focus on the self defense side of BJJ. At the school I went to we did a lot of standing clinch work. I have done WC also and I find the clinch work I learned in BJJ ties in nicely with what I learned doing WC.

2. You may end up on the ground whether or not you want to be there. In the US at least there are a lot of people who have wrestling backgrounds from school, not to mention US football. Its not a bad idea to know what you are doing if you end up there. The wrestler/football player/rugby player approach to fighting is a) double leg tackle, b) sit on his chest, c) feed him his teeth. You don't have to be have to have great striking skills when you have full mount on someone, you don't need to know any submissions either.

3. How come all the guys who know BJJ are loners, out wandering around in the bad part of town alone and friendless only to be attacked by gangs of thugs. Believe it or not BJJ players have friends and travel in groups also.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

More often than not, if you engage someone who has a knife, you will end up grappling, so understanding how to grapple with a blade would not be foolhardy at all.

I may be wrong on this, but if you plan on training to engage someone who has a knife, wouldn't this (generally) imply that you yourself have a weapon?

Grappling with weapons seems friggin' dangerous, and counter to the situation.

At any rate, if I'm faced w/ a knife wielding attacker, and I have no weapon, I'm getting the f*ck out of there if possible. If I DO have a weapon, I'll use it - to get the F*ck out of there if possible.

The whole "grappling with weapons" idea may have value within a certain context (mass melee, maybe), but I'm not sure that training along these lines is an efficient use of time.

[dirtyrat]

"More often than not, if you engage someone who has a knife, you will end up grappling, so understanding how to grapple with a blade would not be foolhardy at all."

My grandfather, his cousins and my other FMA instructors would like to see someone try and grab them.

General rule: Run from a knife if you are able. This isn't cowardice, just smart self-defense.

[Knifefighter]

1. BJJ does NOT teach you to deliberately take the fight to the ground all the time. There are a large number of techniques for standing, especially if you focus on the self defense side of BJJ. At the school I went to we did a lot of standing clinch work. I have done WC also and I find the clinch work I learned in BJJ ties in nicely with what I learned doing WC.

2. You may end up on the ground whether or not you want to be there. In the US at least there are a lot of people who have wrestling backgrounds from school, not to mention US football. Its not a bad idea to know what you are doing if you end up there. The wrestler/football player/rugby player approach to fighting is a) double leg tackle, b) sit on his chest, c) feed him his teeth. You don't have to be have to have great striking skills when you have full mount on someone, you don't need to know any submissions either.

3. How come all the guys who know BJJ are loners, out wandering around in the bad part of town alone and friendless only to be attacked by gangs of thugs. Believe it or not BJJ players have friends and travel in groups also.

+1 on everything except for the self-defense aspect of BJJ. BJJ's self-defense is about as sufficient for self-defense as is WC's training is for groundfighting.

[Knifefighter]

"More often than not, if you engage someone who has a knife, you will end up grappling, so understanding how to grapple with a blade would not be foolhardy at all."

My grandfather, his cousins and my other FMA instructors would like to see someone try and grab them.

General rule: Run from a knife if you are able. This isn't cowardice, just smart self-defense.

You are not always able to run from a blade. Sometimes engaging is the only option. If someone pulls a blade, often you won't even know it until you are about to be or have been shanked. Sometimes you have no room to maneuver or escape. In these cases, grappling is often you only option.

[m1k3]

+1 on everything except for the self-defense aspect of BJJ. BJJ's self-defense is about as sufficient for self-defense as is WC's training is for groundfighting.

What? You never read Royce Gracies' Jiu Jitsu for Self Defense book?

[dirtyrat]

"If someone pulls a blade, often you won't even know it until you are about to be or have been shanked."

Exactly!!! A good knifefighter has quick, short movements and more importantly he has deceptive strategies and tactics.

A knife fight will never be fair. Even an untrained guy would rather sneak up on you than announce their intentions.

[Knifefighter]

"If someone pulls a blade, often you won't even know it until you are about to be or have been shanked."

Exactly!!! A good knifefighter has quick, short movements and more importantly he has deceptive strategies and tactics.

A knife fight will never be fair. Even an untrained guy would rather sneak up on you than announce their intentions.

And once you get stabbed, you'd sure better know how to grapple if you want to increase your chances of surviving.

[dirtyrat]

And once you get stabbed, you'd sure better know how to grapple if you want to increase your chances of surviving.

Providing you're in any condition to fight back....
Look, I'm not disagreeing with you about grappling being effective. Even my bjj instructor told me there's no real sure way to deal with a knife attack. Just hope luck's on your side.

Since this is a WC thread, I'll say this about WC and kung fu in general. Some people think cma is a striking only art. And that's where most students fail to realize kung fu's real potential. Kung fu fighters don't just try to hit you. Even if blocked, a good kung fu fighter can take advantage of that and affect his opponent's center of gravity thereby unbalancing him into a vunerable position.

[Kansuke]

The wrestler/football player/rugby player approach to fighting is a) double leg tackle, b) sit on his chest, c) feed him his teeth.

You are simplifying wrestling a bit with that grouping.