WC's Ground Game

[CFT]

Your time might be better spent trying to invent a device with four wheels that runs on a fossil fuel and can convey people to locations

Tssk! That is so "backward" looking.

[lkfmdc]

Tssk! That is so "backward" looking.

that is sorta da point

[monji112000]

I"m afraid that by introducing logic into this thread, I'll disrupt the flow of this conversation and perhaps, e gad, end the thread

Can you take certain wing chun principles and apply them on the ground? Yes.

Unforatunately, you'll be wasting a lot of time trying to figure out what is real and what is fantasy on the ground and developing techniques.

But, more importantly, you'll then find out the end that those wing chun principles that do work on teh ground are already part of established grappling systems

YOur time might be better spent trying to invent a device with four wheels that runs on a fossil fuel and can convey people to locations

I don't like the idea of trying to use WC "techniques" for the ground. I would say I use WC ideas, concepts, ect.. to help me learn faster, and give me ideas on how things work. I do once in a while use a literal technique but its all in context. Some people say forward pressure is a Fundamental of WC, I don't .. but ok. Thats a perfect example of how it can be misused. A perfect example of using a "WC" concept is Push and pull. My Sifu is always talking about it in Chi sao. It comes up in ground fighting allot also. Another example is protecting yourself, and not putting yourself in harms way for the sake of attacking.
I'm sure allot of martial arts have these ideas. I don't like saying Center .. because it means allot of things to allot of people, depending on the situation.

[Knifefighter]

I don't like the idea of trying to use WC "techniques" for the ground. I would say I use WC ideas, concepts, ect.. to help me learn faster, and give me ideas on how things work. I do once in a while use a literal technique but its all in context. Some people say forward pressure is a Fundamental of WC, I don't .. but ok. Thats a perfect example of how it can be misused. A perfect example of using a "WC" concept is Push and pull. My Sifu is always talking about it in Chi sao. It comes up in ground fighting allot also. Another example is protecting yourself, and not putting yourself in harms way for the sake of attacking.
I'm sure allot of martial arts have these ideas. I don't like saying Center .. because it means allot of things to allot of people, depending on the situation.

The thing with groundfighting is that the principles change, depending on one's position. In certain positions you want space, while in others , you need to shut it down. In some positions you want to face the opponent's center, while in others you want an angle.

[Yoshiyahu]

Does traditional Wing Chun have a ground game?

Does Boxing have a ground Game?

Does Tae Kwon Do have a ground Game?

Does Karate have a ground game?


Do they need a ground game? Answer in short NO!

They are standing arts. With some take downs,sweeps maybe or chin na techniques.

As for the ground game. If you are fighting ground fighters in an arena,stage,competitions I suggest studing a valid ground fighting style. An Use that. If you are fighting off an attacker on street trying to hit you in the mouth. I suggest learning Karate,TKD Wing Chun or become a golden glove boxer. These will fare better in a street fight.

Also it depends on what you interest is. Do you like ground fighting or do you like kung fu more. Which ever one is your interest that is the one you will prevail in most.

When a fight breaks out what you practice the most will aid you. Using what you practice the least could get you killed an at the very least hurt badly.

I think WC principals work best when you are inside fighting. Also medium range fighting WC principals work well. I think if you choose to fight on the outside or long range. Choy Li Fut,Tae Kwon Do or ChangQuan(Long Fist) would serve you best. This is my opinion.

How can you use WC principals while throwing high kicks?

What about WC principals when doing Aerial Kicks?

You can not. Its a different system.

But I for one love WC the most. An to me the best thing to do is learn how to defeat other fighters with out utlizing their system. In other words who ever is the best will prevail. This is the key to me. Instead of throwing high kicks or jumping in the air with an opponent I will try to move out of their flight path. Instead of trying to wrestle a grappler down to ground so I can submit him. I will attempt to counter his takedown attempt an continously strike him.

If I fail his fighting spirit prevailed. If I win my fighting spirit prevails. Who ever has the most skill an fighting with their art wins. That what it boils down too. No need to get a ground game if you can defeat an opponent before going to ground. But if your interested in learning how to fight different ranges. I suggest you do following

Study Kick Boxing and Greco Wrestling.

That way you got punches,kicks and grappling! An both are western fighting systems. No need to dedicate yourself to a bunch of chinese stuff! when you dont have too.

[Kansuke]

No need to get a ground game if you can defeat an opponent before going to ground.

If you can defeat every opponent every time before going to ground? Yeah, that's a good bet...good thinking...

[SimonW]

TWC (William Cheung) has always had techniques for fighting from the ground. But the emphasis is on keeping the guy away, hurting him or taking him down so that you can stand back up rather than any real positional game.

Yeah, we saw it in action once

[bakxierboxer]

that is sorta da point

Maybe this is some other kinda point?

GM/Segway co-op

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090407/D97DLJ180.html

[anerlich]

Yeah, we saw it in action once

The OP asked about using WC on the ground. I detailed the TWC party line on groundfighting. If I though it was good enough, I wouldn't have trained BJJ to purple belt level over the last ten years.

You apparently have no solutions to offer regarding WC's ground game, so why don't you just go back to practising headbutts on your wooden dummy?

[mjw]

When I trained with my sifu in Ving Tsun (Wing Chun) we would chi sau/ spar and when it would go to the ground we would keepgoing as a way of training VT on the ground. Wether or not VT in the art yes principles were used.

Later on I went on to cross train in BJJ and I would say that a lot of the princiles do work such as the pressue and sensitivity also works for armlocks etc at times.
As for the centerline and punching from the center isn't part of the theory itself to go in the shortest distance possible or to hit the middle of the mass so it doesn't turn out and diffuse the force?

Well using some of these same principles sometimes a hook punch might be the shortest distance due to the position of your bodies. and as for the center of the body and hitting the core is something that I also stride to do but I look at it as the centerline shifts at times as when your oponent may turn their head and also it is key to try to strike square where you make a level sandwich with your strike, the floor or wall and your oponents body which makes things different but still uses the principles of Ving Tsun.

Many times there is angling in BJJ positioning however when you shift to do for instance tan da or dip da etc. you are making an agle just the same but instead of a simple shift one might be circling a body in BJJ from side mount to reverse mount down to to knee on the belly over to taking their back based on how they are turning and still going for the path of least resistance many times but never letting up on their structure when you are crushing it also like VT.

They are different however I think the principles still can apply very much so.

[lkfmdc]

Just to refresh newbie memories

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2fNPW9OgmY

[Katsu Jin Ken]

i think that for the most part everyone says that TWC doesnt do a very good job at addressing the ground game so i pose this question

why not?........why would the arts founders leave out something like that?


thoughts?

[anerlich]

i think that for the most part everyone says that TWC doesnt do a very good job at addressing the ground game so i pose this question

Do you mean generic traditional Wing Chun or William Cheung's TWC?

If the latter, I'm not sure that any other lineage of WC can demonstrate any real facility with groundfighting either. Certainly yet to see anyone step up on this thread. As for TWC's failure on the ground, I can think of at least two high profile examples where other lineages of WC/T failed miserably against groundfighters.

why not?........why would the arts founders leave out something like that?

Because they aren't omniscient gurus? Because (shudder) they were only trying to develop a standup pugilistic art, and recognised that it did have some limitations that they didn't try to address, but perhaps learned other arts as well to compensate?

[t_niehoff]

i think that for the most part everyone says that TWC doesnt do a very good job at addressing the ground game so i pose this question

why not?........why would the arts founders leave out something like that?


thoughts?

Yeah! And I wonder why the "founders" of boxing left out kicking, the clinch, and the ground? And why the "founders" of muay thai left out the ground? And the Gracies left out striking and stand-up? You're right, it seems they were all a bunch of morons!!

[AdrianK]

why not?........why would the arts founders leave out something like that?

They worked within the limitations of their knowledge and experience. If they had known shuai chiao for instance, then shuai chiao would've probably shown up in wing chun.