WC's Ground Game

[Katsu Jin Ken]

just FYI for everyone alittle on my background i am not a TWC guy, never was, i dont train at a "wing chun" school. My instructor is an instructor in wc as well as jj (PM me if you want specifics).

how about you all? anyone a pure WC fighter? that is to say the only formal training in MA you have is WC

[AdrianK]

Nope. Definitely not.

That being said, I doubt you'll find any Wing Chun "Fighters" here. That is to say, anyone actively fighting, using strictly wing chun... practitioners, sure, but a fighter is a lotta different.

[Phil Redmond]

Nope. Definitely not.

That being said, I doubt you'll find any Wing Chun "Fighters" here. That is to say, anyone actively fighting, using strictly wing chun... practitioners, sure, but a fighter is a lotta different.

I can understand you saying that you doubt you'll find many WC people here fighting but you are most definitely wrong about there being no WC fighters here. We have fighters that used strictly WC in full contact events. You never know who's a member of this forum.

[monji112000]

The thing with groundfighting is that the principles change, depending on one's position. In certain positions you want space, while in others , you need to shut it down. In some positions you want to face the opponent's center, while in others you want an angle.

well thats why I said I what I said. Even in Wing Chun you don't have a universal understanding of "principles". For example you say you want to face the opponents center. Thats all well and good, but I can say many examples when NO you don't want to face the opponents center. it is very easily observed that by always facing his center you loose all torque. Many kicks , punches, setups ect.. are based on turning your body , no facing his center. Its a idea, not a law. the same applies in BJJ. Yes its a basic fundamental idea that you want to face your opponent, the idea in a nut shell being you can use your limbs and he can't take your back. I'm sure you can come up with times when you may for a moment no directly face your opponent.. of if you throw them you may not want to face them. Try and do a ogoshi and always face them.. good luck.

Space isn't a principle, in my ultimate understanding of "wing chun". Their are other ideas that use space to explain things. For example, being safe.. the closer I am to you the more I'm in danger. This is a basic principle in my Sifu's Wing Chun. So once you engage you must be aware of what you do, and COVER. The same idea can be applied in BJJ. some one has side 100 kilos or whatever. He is trying to keep the space as small as possible.. so I'm in danger. I must create space to try and escape, I must make my self "safe".

Ideas or principles are what you make of them. They aren't written on two tablets given from G-d. You treat them like that and you loose all the worth they may have.

Another basic idea I use ALL THE TIME in WC and BJJ/Judo...is Push and pull or opposite power. so many sweeps, submissions, throws, escapes ect.. use this idea. Another idea is set-tup, this is super important in Chi sao. You can never do anything outright. If you don't have the proper set-up, IE timing, feeling, technique to setup.. it doesn't work when people resist. This is universal in BJJ and Judo. Yet its one of the hardest things to do for us lower belts.Judo is nothing without Kazushi.. man do I have horrible Kazushi. ect..

ect...
ect..
If you use logic and reasoning you can figure this stuff out. For me that is the most important lesson my Sifu has taught me, be self-sufficient and understand what you do. If something doesn't make logical sense, its wrong or you don't understand what's going on.

Its good to see you posting here Knifefighter.

Brian L.
Student of Gorden Lu and Gustavo Machado.

[Museumtech]

Just to refresh newbie memories

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2fNPW9OgmY

Try posting the full clip and the full story or just drop it. Meet the man, train with the man, then post an informed opinion.

Peter

[Lee Chiang Po]

I think most people are comparing to UHF fighting in the ring as to who has ground game. It is a sport and the list of rules is endless. No style of fighting has groung game. None of them except BJJ. That seems to be the only thing anyone trains aside from fist battering. If they can't beat you down they shoot for a take down and either a choke or an arm bar. What the hell is that about? The rules only allow certain arm bars and no small joints, which seems to mean the wrists too. It don't matter how good one might be with any particular MA system, if he can't use it, it is no good. So why is everyone picking on WC? I have seen black belt Karate, kung fu, and several other supposedly powerful systems represented by some of these fighters and they still get their brains hammered or arms barred. Maybe even choked half to death. They are all allowed to use the same techniques and no more. So everyone in the ring is fighting using the very same techniques and nothing that would represent their own chosen fighting style. Now and then one of them will surprise everyone by using a karate kick or kung fu move while stand up fighting, but it is not often seen. But by and far it all amounts to who is the strongest and most agressive fighter. Skill is not really all that important as long as you can exibit greater strength. And then of course there is pure luck. Like the first punch out ends with a knock out, Or the first kick landed ends in a broken leg for the kicker. A kick where the shin bone is the contact point can injure the kicker more than the kickee, and this makes it absolutely idiotic. It is like shooting ones self in an effort to kill an opponent.

[Kansuke]

I think most people are comparing to UHF fighting in the ring as to who has ground game. It is a sport and the list of rules is endless. No style of fighting has groung game. None of them except BJJ. That seems to be the only thing anyone trains aside from fist battering. If they can't beat you down they shoot for a take down and either a choke or an arm bar. What the hell is that about? The rules only allow certain arm bars and no small joints, which seems to mean the wrists too. It don't matter how good one might be with any particular MA system, if he can't use it, it is no good. So why is everyone picking on WC? I have seen black belt Karate, kung fu, and several other supposedly powerful systems represented by some of these fighters and they still get their brains hammered or arms barred. Maybe even choked half to death. They are all allowed to use the same techniques and no more. So everyone in the ring is fighting using the very same techniques and nothing that would represent their own chosen fighting style. Now and then one of them will surprise everyone by using a karate kick or kung fu move while stand up fighting, but it is not often seen. But by and far it all amounts to who is the strongest and most agressive fighter. Skill is not really all that important as long as you can exibit greater strength. And then of course there is pure luck. Like the first punch out ends with a knock out, Or the first kick landed ends in a broken leg for the kicker. A kick where the shin bone is the contact point can injure the kicker more than the kickee, and this makes it absolutely idiotic. It is like shooting ones self in an effort to kill an opponent.

This was a joke, right?

[Katsu Jin Ken]

well i think LEE may have a point. If you look at Tim Cartmell for example, 10 years in China studing all three major internal arts, plus has an 8th degree black belt in kung fu sansau and still felt the need to get a black belt in BJJ. BJJ is a great art i love it but i also love the wc. Where your completely wrong at LEE is saying BJJ is the only art with a ground game. Judo has had one since its inception, even a seemly gentle art like aikido has "finishing" techniques for when the enemy is on the ground.

[monji112000]

I think most people are comparing to UHF fighting in the ring as to who has ground game.

I don't know what that's supposed to mean. The topic is WC's ground game. UHF .. that supposed to be MMA or UFC?

So why is everyone picking on WC?

Nobody is picking on anyone..

just to help you understand the sport a large amount of takedowns in MMA are not just shooting in. They are anything from just falling, to a number of greco,judo,sombo, ect..

examples: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VAFc...om=PL&index=59
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQytG...eature=related

it takes allot of skill to throw someone, and then submit them without hitting someone. You could even make a argument that throwing, and sweeping people fit nice a neatly into WC. Will often find ourselves too close or clinched up allot.
JMO

[El_Nastro]

There is no "ground game" in Wing Chun. I suppose it's possible to work groundfighting & find a way to adapt WC principles to the ground, but in truth WC's simply not designed for that kind of fight. In my opinion, when it comes to groundfighting & WC, the best use of your training-time is to practice not going down in the first place, and if you do, your goal should be getting back up.

We should be aware that there is a difference between a streetfight & a duel. A streetfight is full of variables that simply aren't present in a ringfight, ie, a duel. For example: In MMA it makes perfect sense to take someone to the ground, wrap 'em up, and very very patiently wear them down. I've see it time & time again. One of BJJ's favorite strategies & greatest strengths is patience, and it works great in the ring, or in a 1:1 duel on the beaches of Brazil. In real life though, is patience an intelligent strategy to employ? Would you really want to lay a takedown on your enemy? A takedown is great in the ring or on a beach, but how about on a busted up sidewalk? Can you really afford to assume he doesn't have any buddies waiting to kick the **** out of you while you're wrapped up on the ground? If your objective is to prepare for an emergency confrontation as opposed to fighting a duel, maybe a better strategy would be to train to stay on your feet, and get back up if you're taken down. At least that's what I think, and that's how I work WC.

If you're interested in developing a top-notch ground game though, it'd probably be best to learn BJJ. Trying to adapt WC to groundfighting is possible, but doesn't make much sense. I suppose it'd be like trying to adapt BJJ to a standing/striking style.

[anerlich]

I like Tim Cartmell's approach.

It's also worth reminding people that Andreas Hoffman (sp?), GM of Chi Sim WC, is also a BJJ black belt under Flavio Behring.

[Yoshiyahu]

Why must WC have a ground game. Its like boxing, kickboxing or muay thai. There is no ground game in WC. Some have added Ground techs but in reality they come from some ground fighting system previously learn by that sifu.

***If you want a ground game go learn a ground fighting art like BJJ, Submission wrestling, Clinch fighting, or Collegaite wrestling.


If you want to be able to defend against your average punching street fighter then learn WC. Simple...

WC is not designed to fight on the ground.

Boxing is not designed to fight full contact karate tournments.

MMA is not designed to fight in the Tae Kwon Do Olympics.

Brazilian JiuJitsu is not designed to fight in Boxing Circuit.

If any of the various styles step outside their skill set and fight in competition with rules and regulations different than what they have trained for, all of them will be at a great disadvantage.

The MMA guy will not be able to adapt TKD rules, Full Contact Karate, Chi sao competions, Push hands competitions or a Judo match!

Everyone has a skill set. An in actual non-competitve combat the one with most skills will win.

[Knifefighter]

One of BJJ's favorite strategies & greatest strengths is patience, and it works great in the ring, or in a 1:1 duel on the beaches of Brazil. In real life though, is patience an intelligent strategy to employ? Would you really want to lay a takedown on your enemy? A takedown is great in the ring or on a beach, but how about on a busted up sidewalk? .

Sounds like you don't know much about either BJJ or street situations.

LOL @ the busted up sidewalk... only a guy who has never actually been in a real fight would think something like that.

[El_Nastro]

Sounds like you don't know much about either BJJ or street situations.

LOL @ the busted up sidewalk... only a guy who has never actually been in a real fight would think something like that.

Dude, how many MMA matches (especially in the old days of the UFC) have you seen where the BJJ guy latches onto his opponent while in the guard and waits him out, patiently waiting for the other guy to give him an opeining? There've been times when the ref had to break up the fight after a long time because nothing was happening.

And yeah, If I can avoid going to the ground in the first place, I'd rather be able to do that than deliberately take the fight to the ground & wrestle around on concrete.

But apparently you're the expert, so please expound.

[lkfmdc]

But apparently you're the expert, so please expound.

He's a black belt in BJJ with other grappling in his background so he knows a heck of a lot about grappling. He's also a dog brother, and with respect I say those guys are crazy because they go FULL CONTACT with weapons