VTM Discussion\Black Flag Wing Chun

[Peter-Malave]

So now that Black Flag has a 'formula'... is anyone trying to capitalize upon H.F.Y.'s terminology? If times were not so rough I would certainly attend both seminars H.F.Y. and B.F. just to collect all the information and counter information those groups will release.

This is quite an interesting statement.

"If times were not so rough I would certainly attend both seminars H.F.Y. and B.F. just to collect all the information and counter information those groups will release."

While I can appreciate challenging and opposing views in intellectual discussions, I cannot appreciate collectors of information who engage in such politics as you are suggesting. Unless I am wrong, either you have no respect or integrity, or you are suggesting that the VTM doesn't. Are you being sarcastic? Too difficult to tell, and I'm sorry if I'm being offensive.

Considering your recent posts, let's say you are indirectly saying the VTM is collecting information from B.F.E.C. in order to gain some ill-perceived marketing advantage over the HFY association. That is a very disgusting thing to suggest in my book, and I'd really be interested in seeing what the VTM has to say about that *if* that is what you are saying. If you're talking about yourself, then that's a shameful thing to admit man.

If not, then in my book you are indirectly saying there is no integrity in the VTM's research, and that their "marketing" is more so some person's agenda rather than open sharing and honest promotion. On the VTM Discussion thread you suggest he did something similar to Moy Yat, Garrett Gee, and that he may be repeating this yet again to the Black Flag Eng Chun guys. Can you clarify what you mean?

The Black Flag Wing Chun system contains deep knowledge and concepts, showcasing a different point of entry into the Third Hall of the Southern Shaolin Temple.

Benny Meng took some heat back on HFY108 concerning his 3 Halls program. It was VERY obvious he is a very private person because he never answered any of the questions people were asking, including mine and I don't even train martial arts. I've asked myself why he even bothered posting on a discussion board if he was unwilling to discuss. That boggled my mind at the time, but to each his own I guess.

Now it looks like his new angle is to replace the "Third Hall" material which supposedly consisted of HFY, with Black Flag Eng Chun. His 3 Halls program is making less and less sense to me. The more I am reading about the VTM and the development of their program the more I see lines being blurred between business marketing, professional education, research, and history. Not to mention the fact that people are getting seriously burned in the process. I want no part in that at all.

I used to have an interest in driving down to Dayton to learn from Benny Meng. He was the closer of the two to me, and I wasn't about to drive all the way to California from Illinois on a regular basis to learn HFY. Unfortunately after seeing all this take place and watching it unfold now forget it. My kids and family are more important, and I've had much less frustration and drama in pursuing other ventures. WAY too much drama. I might reconsider the local MMA school a few blocks from here. I know they don't have these kind of problems. I hope things pan out for everyone.

Peter

[Hudson Li]

My statements go on the same page as yours, specially re-read your two last paragraphs and you`ll see mine and yours are the same book.
Let me be clear about my thoughts on the V.T.M. I, like you, used to consider learning from Benny Meng somewhere in the future and I used to believe the V.T.M. was unbiased.
However... a couple of days ago I`ve realized that Black Flag Wing Chun had changed their initial statements regarding history and adopted some of the well known Hung Fa Yi terminology, and reading back the old material released by the V.T.M. it was clear to me that it was Benny Meng`s style printed on the new B.F. declarations.
Now let me tell you this, as it is being advertised, Garrett Gee will be giving out never released information on H.F.Y.`s history at the upcoming seminar in Arizona. Never released information means that not even Benny Meng has ever heard about it. And that never released information is coming out after Benny Meng joined Black Flag and stated that H.F.Y. (until recently, according to his articles, "for highest level monks and militaries only") was in fact a form of W.C. practiced by regular infantry, while Black Flag was the true W.C. of the real elite division.
Note that H.F.Y. student duende has declared that Hung Fa Yi has nothing to do with any Banners, but the new genealogy tree on B.F. website shows Black Flag and Red Flag side by side and under Red Flag it reads Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun.
If it`s not information and counter information, I wonder what it is.
The point is that I`d sincerely love to attend both seminars, after all it seems both groups have the utmost interest in showing their best. So it`s not my intention to collect info and counter info for political purposes, as you put it, but as a popular Wingchunner, as they put it, I have a legitimate interest in seeing and hearing what both groups have to say.

[Marcelo-RJ]

Greetings from Rio!

There's enough room for everyone. Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun is a wonderful martial art, and Black Flag Wing Chun surely has its own greatness and value. Wing Chun is rich, no matter what branch we're talking about.
If there are inconsistencies and controversies in how each lineage presents their historical version, let's give time a credit and wait for common points to speak louder.
Shaolin or White Crane, Ng Mui or Cheung Ng... until we have undisputable and objective evidences (artefacts, written texts etc), there ain't no point in creating divisions because of how each branch relates to the greater Wing Chun lore.
HFY WC was for the highest level secret society members or regular infantry? BF WC was for the elite divisions or outer circle rebels? Maybe both are right, for the common primitive form of Wing Chun might be the one practiced by high level secret society revolutionaries, and that form could have been the one that Hung Gun Biu has learned and protected. But these are just especulations and, most of all, does it all really matter right now, when the guardians of those sistems have never had the opportunity to speak to each other and try to figure out what their lineages carry in common, both re. system and re. history?
The point is that GM Gee and GM Tio don't seem to care about proving the world which (hi)story is right. All in all, each Wing Chun branch is a legitimate martial art on its own, and even different versions, expressions and traditions may cohabit this vast world in peace.
These are my 2 cents.

Marcelo

[Hendrik]

Shaolin or White Crane, Ng Mui or Cheung Ng... until we have undisputable and objective evidences (artefacts, written texts etc), there ain't no point in creating divisions because of how each branch relates to the greater Wing Chun lore.

Marcelo

Marcelo,


I dont have problem in living with peace with others because to be real honest, others life is none of my business.

I respect everyone's Story or His-story but others have no right to screw up my lineage with their confusion mind or thier history for marketing purpose.




I believe in mutual respect, thus,


1, I dont agree with your " Undisputable objective evidence" assumption because no one have right to making such claim for my lineage of WCK


For my lineage, Yes, there is solid evidence from my lineage to prove White Crane of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang are the parents of SLT/SNT.



In our lineage we have make connection to the White Crane of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang gate keeper.

we have result such as the following

http://www.emeiqigong.us/articles/articles.html

and

also the endosement from the Fujian White crane that Wing Chun is an evolution White Crane of Fujian.

http://hk.geocities.com/yongchunwhitecrane/origin.htm



2, as for creating " divisions " check into various Kung Fu magazine article since about a decade ago and see who and which party is the one create division for yourself.


Not to mention, there is no solid evidence upto now to back thier claim.


looking at this family tree

http://www.engchunkun.com/familytree.html

is the evidence of misleading with intention unless solid evidence is provided with solid evidence and endosement from the Shao lin that the RED Flag group or the HFY society is the source of all general public WCK.



See,
In Chinese tradition, Yee means doing what is right for others. it is Not doing what is right for oneself and Screw all the others and thier ancestors.

how is when one keep preach Yee Yee Yee but act in a totally opposite way?
Chan Chan Chan but violate all the Chan teaching ?


again, in Chinese tradition, modifying Blood line or making HIs-story for one's own convenient is called "Bullying the teacher and destroy the Ancestors" or Chi Shr Mia Tzu. That is the biggest sin in Chinese Tradition for a student.









Finally,

I wish your lineage family and yourself to be success and prosper, and every lineage live in mutual respect.



Best Regards
Hendrik

[t_niehoff]

Greetings from Rio!

There's enough room for everyone. Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun is a wonderful martial art, and Black Flag Wing Chun surely has its own greatness and value. Wing Chun is rich, no matter what branch we're talking about.

Interesting. By what standard to you gauge"greatness" or "richness" -- the number of fighters the art produces? The level of the fighters the art produces? O

If there are inconsistencies and controversies in how each lineage presents their historical version, let's give time a credit and wait for common points to speak louder.

Oh, I think the "commonality" is already speaking loud and clear.

Shaolin or White Crane, Ng Mui or Cheung Ng... until we have undisputable and objective evidences (artefacts, written texts etc), there ain't no point in creating divisions because of how each branch relates to the greater Wing Chun lore.

There will never be any objective evidence. And, in my view, no one in their right mind would take those stories as even remotely possible. The Ng Mui story is an allegory. The Cheung Ng story comes from a pulp novel.

Maybe, just mayube, someday people will be more interested in proving the "richness" of their art or the "greatness" of their art with something besides madeup history. But, of course, to do that, they would need to fight -- and I don't expect that to happen.

HFY WC was for the highest level secret society members or regular infantry? BF WC was for the elite divisions or outer circle rebels? Maybe both are right, for the common primitive form of Wing Chun might be the one practiced by high level secret society revolutionaries, and that form could have been the one that Hung Gun Biu has learned and protected. But these are just especulations and, most of all, does it all really matter right now, when the guardians of those sistems have never had the opportunity to speak to each other and try to figure out what their lineages carry in common, both re. system and re. history?
The point is that GM Gee and GM Tio don't seem to care about proving the world which (hi)story is right. All in all, each Wing Chun branch is a legitimate martial art on its own, and even different versions, expressions and traditions may cohabit this vast world in peace.
These are my 2 cents.

There is no point in arguing which fairy tales of a recently created WCK branches are correct. That's like arguing over whose pretend fighting is better.

[Marcelo-RJ]

Interesting. By what standard to you gauge"greatness" or "richness" -- the number of fighters the art produces? The level of the fighters the art produces? O

The greatness and the richness of a martial art are far beyond fighting and fighters, IMHO. History, discipline, values, body expression, coordination, courage, self confidence (...) and also allegories and tales do play a special role in my conception of greatness and richness.
BTW, I'm also a Luta Livre (Brazilian no-Gi submission/grappling) practitioner and I train MMA with one of the major Brazilian teams at least once a week here in Rio de Janeiro. Although I personally know and respect a lot of good fighters, some of them internationally renowned, I do not consider their original martial arts richer or greater than Wing Chun - in my case, Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun.
But, of course, each one's opinion is valid on its own. And here's where respect enters.

Marcelo
PS: considered as such, what's wrong with myths, allegories and tales?

[First Blood]

Interesting. By what standard to you gauge"greatness" or "richness" -- the number of fighters the art produces? The level of the fighters the art produces? O.

Though most of your posts are grounded you are nontheless a victim of your own logic.

Greatness And Richness can have validity both historically and present.

Where is WCK history does it mention that it was designed to compete and defeat MMA trained fighters in a ring enviroment ? I'm sure the system would be different it if that was their objective.

If you know anything about WCK history then you will realise the system was born in an enviroment of handweapons and it's objective and subsequent objective was to destroy life and to preserve one's own in the quickest and most efficient way.

Historically how do know have many real lifes were taken or saved through WCK training ?

So your above statement is almost comical......So i cant refer to Peking Opera as 'Great or Rich' just because it hasn't won any international opera awards ?

[Peter-Malave]

Interesting. By what standard to you gauge"greatness" or "richness" -- the number of fighters the art produces? The level of the fighters the art produces? O



Oh, I think the "commonality" is already speaking loud and clear.



There will never be any objective evidence. And, in my view, no one in their right mind would take those stories as even remotely possible. The Ng Mui story is an allegory. The Cheung Ng story comes from a pulp novel.

Maybe, just mayube, someday people will be more interested in proving the "richness" of their art or the "greatness" of their art with something besides madeup history. But, of course, to do that, they would need to fight -- and I don't expect that to happen.



There is no point in arguing which fairy tales of a recently created WCK branches are correct. That's like arguing over whose pretend fighting is better.

It will be a sad day on this Earth if the greatness of America, or any country for that matter, is judged by Terence's value system. There's a difference between value and values, as well as history and personal achievement.

I'm with First Blood and Marcelo-RJ on this one. Sorry dude, but I seriously hope you get your head back where it's supposed to be.

Good luck,
Peter

[t_niehoff]

Interesting series of posts. It seems that when many talk about the "greatness and richness" of their martia art, they are talking about "the greatness and richness" of the bullsh1t associated with their MA -- the stories, the fairly tales, the nonsensical "conceptual systems", etc. I don't find that surprising: this is what SELLS those particular martial arts. (Certainly what sells them isn't their proven record of developing fighting skills, since they have no record!).

[Hudson Li]

as for creating " divisions " check into various Kung Fu magazine article since about a decade ago and see who and which party is the one create division for yourself.
Not to mention, there is no solid evidence upto now to back thier claim.
looking at this family tree
http://www.engchunkun.com/familytree.html
is the evidence of misleading with intention unless solid evidence is provided with solid evidence and endosement from the Shao lin that the RED Flag group or the HFY society is the source of all general public WCK.
See,
In Chinese tradition, Yee means doing what is right for others. it is Not doing what is right for oneself and Screw all the others and thier ancestors.
how is when one keep preach Yee Yee Yee but act in a totally opposite way?
Chan Chan Chan but violate all the Chan teaching ?
again, in Chinese tradition, modifying Blood line or making HIs-story for one's own convenient is called "Bullying the teacher and destroy the Ancestors" or Chi Shr Mia Tzu. That is the biggest sin in Chinese Tradition for a student.

Looking at the family tree you mention, I can only agree with you and once more point out there seems to be a not so subliminar message of Black Flag Eng Chun being purer, more special and superior than the other Wing Chun versions, Hung Fa Yi included. Since it's getting clearer and clearer that something hapenned between Benny Meng and Garrett Gee, as well as that Benny Meng converted to Black Flag Eng Chun, I wonder whose purposes all those new historical (?) informations about Black Flag serve.
I remember Benny Meng's articles used to segregate Chi Sim and Hung Fa Yi from the rest of the Wing Chun world. Those were the pure, the special, the superior, and "we" were just the rest. Then Benny Meng had an issue with Andreas Hofman, and suddenly it was only Hung Fa Yi that reunited the qualities of being pure, special and superior. Now Benny Meng switches over Black Flag Eng Chun and suddenly Hung Fa Yi, like all the "rest", becomes but another regular Wing Chun style. There's an obvious pattern here.
Chi Shr Mia Tzu. I wonder what passed on Moy Yat's, Andreas Hofman's and Garrett Gee's minds.

[Hendrik]

Hudson,

1, we need to make sure we are not practicing Chi Shr Mia Tzu ourself. as for the others, time will tell, and it is really no longer our concern because that is the Karma they choose.

As in the Shao Lin legend,there is a monk name Ma Ninger, a common disciple. In the Qianlong Age of the Qing dynasty, Ma Ninger betrayed Shaolin and guided Qing troops to burn down the temple.

Ma Ning er choosed his own karma.





2, Looking at
http://www.engchunkun.com/familytree.html


This is trouble for sifu Lin.

It is obviously, those who do this family tree doesnt understand classical Chinese martial art tradition.

That also indirectly pointing to the authenticity of the claim.


In Classical Chinese martial art tradition, one needs to have the authorization and agreement to do this type of trees. Otherwise, is like calling someone "*******".

IE: Say those who have last name Chen will not let others by passed their ancestor and become a branch of Lee.

This familytree is trouble because there is no right for the person who makes or endose this tree to make the Red Boat Opera, Yim Wing Chun, Foshan City, Guangzhou, Yip Man, Bruce Lee a branch of Red Flag Group and Eng Chun Tim.



Indirectly, making and endosement of this tree put one in the position of Ignorance on the CLASSICAL CHINESE TRADITION.

IE: I am from the Yik Kam lineage of WCK. We were taught in case we meet some decendent of other WCK from the Red Boat Era, we have to show them our code with respect, and going by the CLASSICAL CHINESE TRADITIONAL rule, if his generation is higher then me, I need to call him as senior.



If ENG CHUN TIM exist. The above example activity will have to carry out without ambiguity. So that one doesnt become " Mei DA Mei Siao" or no respect of others, which is a big no no in Classical Chinese tradition.



And since these Classical Chinese Tradition comes with the Art similar with two wings of a bird. How could it be, in one hand claiming the inheritance of the Art but not the Tradition?




3, As I mention in this forum and other forum a few time, Yes, there is code to identify oneself in the Red Boat era. In fact, I have post the Yik Kam's WCK lineage's Code which comes with the salutation movement.

Which is

1,

反清 復明 五湖四海 十指連心 遝我河山

Over turn the Qing, Return to Ming, Five lakes four seas, ten fingers with the same heart, return me my country.

2,

劍指膀肘逞英雄

Sword finger, Bong Elbow present to the Hero (Yin Hung)
(Yin Hung was used in that era for to refer to the Hung Mun because the pronouciation of Hung in hero is similar to the Hung of Hung Mun.)



Notice the following CLF stanza, in the following site, it starts also with Yin Hong. and we know CLF was also involved in the uprising activity in the same era of 1800's

http://www.hongshengguan.com/his.htm




This Yin Hung term also could be found in YUE YUAN / Dim Chun hall exhibit of Shang Hai. there is a picture on the Shang Hai Yin Hung Stanza some where in the old article in Rene's site.
One can sees the activities between Shang Hai, Taiping, Canton, Opera....etc at that era. Rene and Robert have written a series of details article on these.

http://www.w1ng.com/shanghai-connect...un-siu-do-wui/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDVkK...eature=related




半点子午定太平

Half Point of center spear settle the Tai Ping
( Taiping for Tai Ping Tien Kuo, )http://wsu.edu/~dee/CHING/TAIPING.HTM






If Red Group or VTM of HKM Engchun (since they post the family tree) belive in thier position, then they need to post thier code in the Red Boat era or even older era with multi-ple verify-able source to present thier identity.
otherwise, they have no position to step on top of the Red Boat opera and WCK of Red Boat, Cantoon....etc.


http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/...engChunHistory


The Name Tan Sau Ng, or Hung Gam Biu or Eng Chun Tian doesnt means much without specification and multi-verify-able source. It is similar to Obama, which Obama?


See, from the History of Tien Tee Hui, Taiping, Shang Hai, Canton above, today we knows the Name such as Lee Man Mau, Hung Xiu Chuan..... all the top leaders of the era. There is no Hung Gam Biu. As for Tan Sau Ng. yes, he contribute to the Opera hundred years ago prior to 1850's. However, what is his martial art style? Not to mention, even White Crane of WIng Chun going through at least one major evolution from 1660 to 1820 --- Martial art changes and style evolve to keep up with the progress changes.


Also, what kind of art is the Red Flag and Black Flag? what is the uniqueness with multi-ple varify-able source. IE: Yip Man WCK can be Varified with YKS WCK, Yik Kam WCK, Koo Lo WCK, and all of them echo each others even they are from different location.




Those VTM needs to take the responsibility to clearify instead of just post something and expect everyone to take it as the truth for no reason and evidence.



That is the Chinese Traditional way. any classical TCMA Sifu will expect to see. and expect VTM live up to the Standard of their mission.



Finally,

I am open with different views and ideas; but it needs to be done properly when it comes with tradition so that we dont screw the future generation. I wish a prosper future for HKM EngChun and VTM.

[chusauli]

The Chinese consider respecting the ancestors important and also hold high the concept of preventing to lead future generations astray. This is in keeping with the ancestor worship which identifies the Chinese people since the beginning of our culture.

This is the sum of Hendrik's statements. It may not mean a lot to others, but this is something that is very important to traditional minded Chinese culturally.

I realize since WCK has become international, that many may not see the issues here.

[Hudson Li]

Looking at all that has been said here, do you mean Benny Meng is not Chinese or is it all about becoming integrated to the modern global liberal paradigm?

[Hendrik]

Robert,

Thanks for the summary.

The Chinese consider respecting the ancestors important and also hold high the concept of preventing to lead future generations astray.

That is the teaching of Confucian to be a responsible person. Responsible for the past, present , and future.

This is in keeping with the ancestor worship which identifies the Chinese people since the beginning of our culture.

As above,
Thus, behind the surface of ancestor worship act. To become a responsibility person who can Ding Tien Li Dee or Support the sky and stand solid on the earth is the idea.


To be a sifu or a grand master or a leader, one has influence on others life. thus, one needs to be even carefull.

If one is not truthfull with the ancestors, how can one be truth full with others?

It may not mean a lot to others, but this is something that is very important to traditional minded Chinese culturally.

I realize since WCK has become international, that many may not see the issues here.

Everything has a consequence, become international means there are more responsibility to others well being.

Thus, learning Chinese culture must go deep instead of wearing some pajamas type of clothing, saying some chinese words, joining some club, but true-ly know what is the meaning to become a good citizen of the earth where benifit oneself and others.


Just some thoughts

[Hendrik]

is it all about becoming integrated to the modern global liberal paradigm?

When we screw up and lost the root and the past, chaos will be surface.

if that is what modern global liberal paradigm lead into ;
then what is the point to bring the Buddhist monk of Shao lin, the great sages of the past into the picture of WCK?

what is Zen or Chan? Chan means Taking full responsibility and living in Now. does one taking full responsibility on one's act ? that one knows in one's own heart.