Southern Similarities

[Violent Designs]

it says weng chun is unique because no other style has its three forms

i think it only proves weng chun is new, not unique

Well, imagine that. Other styles don't have Wing Chun forms.

[TenTigers]

"In those forms there are absolutely no traces of other styles or of any other southern Shaolin in the boxing methods. It includes the Southern Shaolin 6 and a half point staff "

boulderdawg, um, dash!
Hung, SPM, and other Southern Shaolin styles contain yee ji kim yeung ma, tan, bong, fook, pak, biu, gaun,etc.
If it includes the Shaolin staff, which is an extension of the hand, then again, this article contradicts itself.

Ah, but the article IS written in Chinese, by someone who must be very important, so it must be true....

[CFT]

We don't really know the source of the article. I've only read what Omar has translated and skimmed some of the rest. It doesn't seem to me to be particularly scholarly. It maybe a newspaper piece by some WCK "master" who wants to proclaim the preeminence of their lineage.

I remember reading an article by a great--grandson (I think) of Chan Wah Sun who claimed that they had extra secret forms in their line. This was the article about CWS taking on Wong Fei Hung and beating him when WFH came to challenge Leung Jan. Sounded like baloney to me. Both articles seem like they are cut from the same cloth.

[Violent Designs]

Do you guys need another translation? I can translate later today after I get some rest . . .

[Hendrik]

Go ahead translate these



红船永春拳〉 Red Boat Enternal Spring

历史地点—1870年后，太成国李文茂事件后，粤剧禁演。大花面（陆）锦于广州传授与冯小清。

相关人物—大花面（陆）锦。

冯小青

冯(在1870年后，当时粤剧可以在广州恢复演出)在广州追随师父粤剧武生新锦（大花面锦，陆锦）学习红船 永春(前身为福建白鹤拳）。新锦在粤剧班中是黄华宝(1854年前在佛山粤剧演出之武生)的后辈。所以根本 无何能陆锦与黄华宝连上关系。冯小青大约在1920年左右在佛山去世，享寿72岁。



〈花洪拳〉 Fa Hung Kuen (Flower Hung Kuen)

拳套：花拳，箭拳，七星拳等。无寻桥，标指等咏春独有拳套。

有缠丝棍〔不同于梁二娣(咏春拳)之六点半棍〕。





混合咏春 -------------- Mix Praise the Spring

咏春拳注重实效，拳理自然科学，合乎人体力学，三角几何。人人可以依照自身条件来学习。加上中 国传统哲理，

儒家中正守法，道法自然随意，佛性修心，不行邪念。造成可以发展之有利条件。

现在很多学习其他门派之人士，亦加入原咏春之原理或动作，将自身之动作招式改变，发展了：

1，洪拳咏春—以‘至善禅师’为创始人。部分洪家拳加上更改之咏春拳套路。
Hung Kuen Praise the Spring

2，少林咏春—以‘至善禅师’为创始人。部分老洪拳加上更改之咏春拳套路。
Shao Lin Praise the Spring


3，红船永春—部分永春拳加上黄华宝之小练（念）头。梁二娣之六点半棍。
Red Boat enternal Spring


4，永春咏春—以‘永春三（七）娘’为创始人。部分永春拳加上咏春三套拳套路。

White Crane enternal spring Praise the Spring


5，洪头蔡尾咏春—以‘至善禅师’为创始人。部分洪家拳，部分蔡李佛拳如“小练”，“走四门”。加上咏春三 套拳套路。

Hung Gar Starting Choy Gar ending Praise the Spring


可惜，咏春拳是一个完整之学习系统，如果只学其部分，如其套路，更改其手法，加以花巧，表现刚烈，便失其真 。

如果只学其原理，不随其系统手法，终不得其至美。



陈国基永春拳 (花洪拳) Chan Kok Kei Enternal spring or Fa Hung Kuen


陈国基家父陈家廉，擅长一字剑、十三枪及双刀拆棍等母系拳术。家廉自小在乡间学习自母亲黎好(妙显)之洪拳 ，长大后，1932年追随父亲陈汝棉前往广西授徒(之前从未在佛山授徒)，而母亲黎好则从顺德到佛山，留守 陈馆教授洪拳，陈汝棉之徒弟招就得以追随兼学其花洪拳。

解放后，中共禁止传授咏春拳，陈家廉在顺德一所小学中教授花洪拳。此时的弟子有谭焕标。而在解放后始学习花 拳的黄仁智后反传陈家廉之子陈国基。谭焕标等现称此拳是顺德永春拳，实质是洪拳与部分咏春拳之 变异。

* 陈国基永春拳与冯少青之红船永春拳无关。

陈国基尊“至善禅师”为先师。他说此拳由至善所创，为纪念永春殿故取名为永春拳。又说清帝火烧福建少林寺， 只剩下永春殿(这是花拳之传说历史)。因为至善禅师、洪熙官、黄坤三人(这是洪拳之传说)当时外游，才免于 难云云。又说清庭发现永春拳是少林拳，因而剿之，于是改名“咏春”云云。所以陈国基复名为“永 春拳”。

陈国基自称学自家传。独有秘传后半部咏春拳套(祖母黎好之花洪拳拳套)；四门拳、伏虎拳、佛掌“注1”、红 砂掌、梅花枪、九环刀等等。现在之所谓 “ 下半部”咏春拳的招式，不过是把其他门派的招式胡混堆砌，包括有龙形、洪拳及鹰爪等，独不见咏春精髓。固此 ，陈国基及谭焕标之所谓“嫡传少林永春拳”实与吴仲素、叶问等所传（吴与问公均为陈国基之祖华公佛山门下传 人，因此问公于港传武期间仍称本门派为佛山咏春派）佛山咏春也无关。

[Violent Designs]

I wasn't talking to you.

I thought you are Chinese too? Maybe you are lying?

How about YOU respond sometime, when I write something to you in Chinese, back to me in Chinese?

Instead of playing the ignore game or redirecting everything I say with sh1t like "please use English this is an English forum."

It seems like you only use English when it suits your needs, and yet you spam Chinese articles without even bothering to translate them?

I'm not the one trying to prove my point with Chinese articles, the one trying to prove a point is you. So it is YOUR responsibility to translate what the hell you are talking about to non-Chinese speaking people.

[Hendrik]

How about these? let the world know what is going on.


洪拳，由元、明间陕西地方拳术红拳加上其他拳术演变而来，已有300多年的发展历史，是清代南方民间秘密结 社三合会(洪门)假托少林所传习的一种拳术。洪门由郑成功在台湾创立的“金台山”开始。在南中国发展组织， 练习武术，宣传反清复明思想。
　　南方洪拳以五形拳闻名．北方洪拳以十(二)形拳（心意六合拳）传出．

据说系清代民间秘密结社洪门假托少林所传习的一种拳术。洪门相传创于清康熙十三年(1674)。另传起于清 顺治十八年(1661)明将郑成功在台湾创立的 “金台山”，该组织以明太祖朱元漳年号“洪武”的“洪”字立门，故称洪门。推行与从事洪拳练习，以练习武艺 为名，发展组织，宣传反清复明思想。此说尚未得到可靠证实。湖北洪拳，假托宋太祖所创，根据民传闻“赵匡胤 三十二手定天下”之说，其拳名义溯“手”字命名，如：总手、封手、金刚手等，此拳由于受武当影响，还出现了 九官手、老君堂等套路。洪拳气势刚猛、劲道十足而又十分实用，因此作为南拳代表，目前国家规定比赛用之“南 拳套路”很大一部分之架势拳路，就来自洪拳拳套。
　　洪拳是以龙、虎、狮、豹、蛇、鹤、象、马、猴、虎的象形与特性结合武术技法创编而成。有单形拳术，如龙 拳、虎拳等；亦有混合形拳术，如虎鹤双形拳、五形拳、十形拳等。其风格特点是：手法丰富，腿法较少，步稳势 烈，硬桥硬马，刚劲有力，以气催力，以声助威。湖北洪门拳劲刚势猛，故有“洪门一头牛，打死不回头”之说。 四川洪门拳还有南北两派之分。南派要求形、意、气、力、声的高度统一，主张以力服人，以威取胜，硬打直上， 劲透过身，刚劲有力；北派拳势舒展，招式清晰，四平大马，扁侧进击，闪展灵活，发劲含蓄，拳势威猛，刚劲有 力。








洪家著名的三套套路：
　　* 工字伏虎拳——修改十八罗汉拳而成，路线成工字形。为洪家母形拳（初级拳套路），学习扎马，桥手、及内功基 础。
　　* 铁线拳——铁桥三所传。属短桥窄马近身贴战的武术。铁线拳主练内功，“外练筋骨皮、内练一口气”的实践套路 。
　　* 虎鹤双形拳——修改自五形拳而成，属应用套路。
　　其他套路 五形拳，五禽拳，十二桥手及十二桥马。

花洪拳
　　另一枝由梁二娣传入佛山而至顺德，顺德一支，可以追溯至黎三兴，当时称为花洪拳。二战后，黎三兴的外孙 陈家廉后正式定名为永春拳。
　　花红拳极有可能是从东莞之莫家拳衍演出来。并拳套有串花拳，箭拳，黑虎拳，豹拳，人字桩，钓鱼及盘龙棍 。

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po View Post
I have read all sorts of stuff concerning CMA and Gung Fu, but I think most of it is simply made up and represents very little of the actual truth. Marketing or whatever, but when dealing with Chinese history we can get some real BS. One thing I can say for certain is that in 1955 WC was called Hung Fa Wing Chun or just Hung Fa by everybody I knew that practiced it. So called after a fellow by the name of Hung. And this version at least came out of Canton, China.
I wish I knew something about Choy la fut or Hung Gar, but I don't.

Chiang

Lee,

You are absolutely correct about Chinese make up history. Now it is known Internationally people Selectively choose the version of history they like to serve themselve, got nothing to do with Facts. Even the stuffs you are certain, those also within the boundary of "HIs--story"

As I mention in other post, IMHO, now, most of the stuff we train are just Chup Sui Kuen, a mess.


Hahaha. life. Until one sure what one does what can one knows about others? hahaha taking care of one's own business is a better deal. Sure, it sound fortune cookie, but until one Knows and Sure. what matter?





You guys go sort out who is who what is what. hahaha. I rather relax and listern to the following song since I am just sharing what I found and nothing more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMYFq...eature=related


They are illusions
They are not the solutions they promised to be
The answer was here all the time


Don't cry for me Argentina

Have I said too much?
There's nothing more I can think of to say to you.
But all you have to do is look at me to know
That every word is true

[Violent Designs]

You really are the worst sort of person.

[Vajramusti]

"I wasn't talking to you.

I thought you are Chinese too? Maybe you are lying? "
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why be personal? Hendrik is Chinese and very competent in dealing with Chinese texts-old and new. Dialogue even with different POVs is better than being personal. IMHO.

Joy Chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

"I wasn't talking to you.

I thought you are Chinese too? Maybe you are lying? "
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why be personal? Hendrik is Chinese and very competent in dealing with Chinese texts-old and new. Dialogue even with different POVs is better than being personal. IMHO.

Joy Chaudhuri

Joy,

Thanks.

For me what matter is if we tell the truth and contribute good to the world.

life is simple, just present it is as it is.

and always know knowing a thing is not the true knowing.
instead to trying keep arguing on something one have not specialized on or even have any clue, it is better to stay in silence, as the teaching of WCK ----> using silence to lead the action.


Best Regards
Hendrik

[Violent Designs]

"I wasn't talking to you.

I thought you are Chinese too? Maybe you are lying? "
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why be personal? Hendrik is Chinese and very competent in dealing with Chinese texts-old and new. Dialogue even with different POVs is better than being personal. IMHO.

Joy Chaudhuri

Avoiding questions by posting more questions, and using circular logic is not having a dialogue.

[bawang]

"I wasn't talking to you.

I thought you are Chinese too? Maybe you are lying? "
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why be personal? Hendrik is Chinese and very competent in dealing with Chinese texts-old and new. Dialogue even with different POVs is better than being personal. IMHO.

Joy Chaudhuri

hes looking down on people because he thought they couldnt understand chinese so he posts a chinese article , turns out we all can read chinese

i think thats stupid pretending to be smart
all he posted was some generic info from another chinese forum

he only make message here because someone mention weng chun

[Hendrik]

hes looking down on people because he thought they couldnt understand chinese so he posts a chinese article , turns out we all can read chinese

i think thats stupid pretending to be smart
all he posted was some generic info from another chinese forum

he only make message here because someone mention weng chun

Those are what you think . not my issues.

Read my previous posts and read it as it is without reading your own mind.

I am sure everyone is capable to do that , just needs a little patient to comprehend before jump gun or get personal.

[banditshaw]

This thread is becoming a major clusterfukk