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Thread: Xiao/Da Hong Quan...the only fist forms practiced after Revolution

  1. #31
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    Hmm

    I expect forms as old as these have been in a constant state of evolution, it could be that xiao hong and lao jia both spring from one common ancestor, much like humans and chimps... Never the less i would attest to xiao hong being the greater form. At the least we can say it hasn't changed since the painting of the mural of shaolin (because wugulun pai's xiao hong is the same in all but shenfa). And is much more widely practiced than lao jia. The only places i have seen lao jia practiced here in dengfeng they refer to it as Da hong quan, because it is simply xiao hong but with larger frame movements. It could be that these were created simultaneously as da xiao hong quan i suppose. I was of the opinion that Li sou created Da hong quan, not xiao hong quan, and that the forms were not so closely related. That xiao hong was the older form.

    As to the beginning meihua section...I am a little skeptical as to the Meihua men forms.... Meihua in early shaolin seems to be a completely different skill set,... I have some suspicion as to the origin of the current meihua forms. Need to investigate that further. I know we have some historical info, but it doesn't relate to the actual movements. I would like to see some more meihua forms....

    I have several histories from different teachers, but they are by way of oral tradition, i suspect Sal's research may be more accurate.

    The reason i really liked the history by my current master is that he made a real narrative story out of it, with different characters and quotes and so forth. It is this that i can't translate.... Still roughly the history paralells that of taizu chang quan. To say that Xiao hong quan is 'mu quan', one refined from many. From a meeting of 18 men pai, refining the technique from 18 styles into one form. THis is in the time of zhao kuang yin.

    The whole part of this era, Taizu quan etc is very complicated....and mixed up, and so many styles like to put their origin at the meeting of the 18 styles.....Can't really say for sure. But I can at the least assure you that it is the opinion of a lot of old masters that Xiao hong quan is the most important shaolin skill set. And that it is possible to derive other sets like tongbei and pao quan from xiao hong quan alone.

    By the way;

    As to Taizu chang quan you will be pleased to know I am in contact with Liu Hui Zhen (liuzhenhai's son). If you remember we had some suspicions about his 'xiao tongbei' and its relationship to shaolin taizu quan and possibly Da Tong bei quan. He's out of town for the next month, but when hes back I should prepare some questions for him.


    Also did you know that shaolin Da tong bei has 6 forms?! New info to me.... Have you seen any of the others?

  2. #32
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    @RenDaHai,

    I am a little cunfused, because a lot of story`s and video`s I read and see involve enormus hard practice for hours and hours on a day, in the morning, midday and evening.

    for example,

    A piece of a story from master Zhu Tian Xi, wich you guys know already maybe.

    It takes more than twenty minutes to finishing practicing the twenty-four Lu Tan Tui entirely, and it has to be with a certain physical strength. When finishing the practicing ten rounds Tan Tui, one is already sweltering profusely. Some even cried for not being able to finish the practice completely. Teaching Kungfu for nearly forty years, I have never seen a person who can finish practicing twenty rounds successfully in one breath except one of my Shidi (male formally apprenticed after another to a master worker to learn a skill). My Shidi was dripping with perspiration from practicing twenty rounds Kung-fu, all of his clothes was soaked with sweat. Clothes off, his sweat was splashing down

    He had to do each round of Tan Tui 20 times, and at the end doing about 1000 movements also in the story, it make me thing i had to also practice for hours and hours....

    And afcourse, my first movie that I saw was the 36th Chambers of Shaolin, wich involvles also alot of physical training, so I was always focussed alot on the hard parts, not that I am any good at it..

    And the Shaolin Songshan training at WushuGuan on You Tube. ( I guess the top is to take a bull down ! )

    Maybe 10 % is external and 90 internal ?

    And Xiao Hong Quan is like this 10 % in postures and perfect shape, but 90 % is missing if internal ways are not in it maybe ?

    A link to the website, that begins on page one
    http://shaolinrevelations.com/index....&id=9&Itemid=7
    Last edited by Eugene; 03-18-2010 at 03:48 AM.

  3. #33
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    @Eugene

    Off course training must be hard!

    Although you can train internally from the begining the external moves must also be mastered. The old masters off course trained hard like this, but in their old age, when their basics were mastered they did not continue with this level of external training. This is just at the begining.

    But internal training is even more difficult;

    Try standing in Gong bu for 2 hours without flinching, all the while not listening to the pain in your body and searching for the void between thoughts.... My master had a disciple who stood in gong bu tui zhang for 21 hours..... That is harder than 20 full rounds of tan tui. This is some of the internal training.

    Or meditating for 3 days straight, without losing posture or focus. I would rather practice 20 rounds of tan tui than to meditate for 3 days anytime.
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 03-18-2010 at 08:04 AM.

  4. #34
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    21 hours in Gong Bu Tui Zhang...that is some training, very interesting. Internal training is much harder to see it like that you describe.

    Its unbelieveble in some ways, somehow i get the idea that to understand Xiao Hong Quan, and do it according to all above, it takes more then 10 years...

    I watched a Wugulun Xiao today, and saw 3 Xubu`s in it, I havent seen much of wugulun, i dont understand it at all.

  5. #35
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    It takes a long time certainly, but there are no definate times, it depends how well you train.

    Wugulun Xiao hong quan is very good. It is difficult to understand the body mechanics (shen fa) at first, but it is a very good skill.

    Try doing a move, say an uppercut. Do the move without moving your body, just your arm, see what it feels like?

    Now do the same move but don't move your arm at all, only move your body. Try and get the same range of movement. This way the arm still moves, and does so with even more weight behind it. Its a simple example but this might help you understand why Wugulun pai move the way they do. In reality it is a combination of both movements and there is a lot more to it than that, but its a start.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    At the least we can say it hasn't changed since the painting of the mural of shaolin (because wugulun pai's xiao hong is the same in all but shenfa).
    same as what? i see them nowadays doing it several different ways, all with the same small frame shenfa, but they seem to be moving free-form. each person seems to have their own way. and not only that, but i've seen some of them do completely different techniques added in that dont appear in others'.

    I was of the opinion that Li sou created Da hong quan, not xiao hong quan, and that the forms were not so closely related. That xiao hong was the older form.
    you mean dahongquan as in laojia hongquan, created by li sou in late song/early yuan dynasty, much later than xiaohongquan as an amalgamation of styles from early song dynasty?

    As to the beginning meihua section...I am a little skeptical as to the Meihua men forms.... Meihua in early shaolin seems to be a completely different skill set,... I have some suspicion as to the origin of the current meihua forms. Need to investigate that further. I know we have some historical info, but it doesn't relate to the actual movements. I would like to see some more meihua forms....
    well, the xiaomeihuaquan/ditangmeihuaquan is an abbreviated version of the original meihuaquan set. whereas the dameihuaquan was created fairly recently. i'm not sure how closely related all its weapon sets are to the early meihuaquan.

    but the xiao/ditang meihuaquan has an opening sequence which is done in datongbiquan and others. it starts from the xubu following the gongbu danbian at the beginning datongbiquan, all the way up to the mabu one-two punch.

    then the ending sequence of this meihua set is the opening sequence to laojia hongquan, which then flows into classic xiaohongquan.

    As to Taizu chang quan you will be pleased to know I am in contact with Liu Hui Zhen (liuzhenhai's son). If you remember we had some suspicions about his 'xiao tongbei' and its relationship to shaolin taizu quan and possibly Da Tong bei quan. He's out of town for the next month, but when hes back I should prepare some questions for him.
    yes, particularly the lyrics for one of his xiaotongbiquan sets match up with the lyrics to the second road of taizu changquan, a supposedly lost form, as it is listed in the shaolin encyclopedia. maybe bring that up.

    i havent seen other datongbiquan sets, but i've heard of there being more, and felt there naturally should be more to it. that question is probably also related to those mysterious xiaotongbiquan sets. they're all connected somehow....

  7. #37
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    @RenDaHai,

    Ik took me some days, but I have a very small idea now, about the movements of wugulun, i tried what you said.
    I am wondering if one knows 2 kinds of * shen fa * in your words, they dont get mixed up in a set ?

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