Wing Chun in MMA?

[Edmund]

You guys are embarrising. You argue over stuff you have no clues about. You are comparing everything to MMA fighters.

What the hell was the topic of the thread?

[Genetic]

Wing chun will have its day in MMA, but no-one will recognise it, they wont know what it looks like

[OdderMensch]

OM,

I'm sorry but these are not the same as lessons in the fundamentals of groundfighting. FOR INSTANCE, you were standing up!!

How will you learn the fundamentals of groundfighting without actually taking lessons from someone who is teaching you?

You say you train on the ground already?
Then taking lessons on techniques and concepts from ground fighting experts is not a big step and would be quite familiar.

My apologies for being both long winded and vague. The point of my post most relevant to the discussion at hand was his response to that lock (as applied on the ground) namely "wait until they relax then do something" does not strike me as much of a plan. but that was a MMA / Grappler tactic!

Again it was in response to the assertion that "any MMA/ Grappling school would be better than learning from my Sifu, who is a master of WC and the Di Tong that is a vital part of it.

(a quote from Grappler Beating Basics "I've taught ground fighting, I taught ground fighting when people laughed at me for doing so, in fact the biggest guy I've taken down, i took down grappling and held him until help arrived")

Now I imagine that more experienced ground fighters have much better escapes from that position, and If they exist I am certain my Sifu, who has studied and taught ground fighting for many years, knows them and will teach me.

[Edmund]

My apologies for being both long winded and vague. The point of my post most relevant to the discussion at hand was his response to that lock (as applied on the ground) namely "wait until they relax then do something" does not strike me as much of a plan. but that was a MMA / Grappler tactic!

"Wait until they relax"?
Not sure what your friend was trying to say there.

Again it was in response to the assertion that "any MMA/ Grappling school would be better than learning from my Sifu, who is a master of WC and the Di Tong that is a vital part of it.

I think you're misquoting that assertion. Your sifu was not mentioned. Mr Punch said if you wanted to improve your tactics of getting up and so forth, you should practice against grapplers at a grappling school. e.g. They would know a lot more about good hold downs and submissions that you could train against.

(a quote from Grappler Beating Basics "I've taught ground fighting, I taught ground fighting when people laughed at me for doing so, in fact the biggest guy I've taken down, i took down grappling and held him until help arrived")

Now I imagine that more experienced ground fighters have much better escapes from that position, and If they exist I am certain my Sifu, who has studied and taught ground fighting for many years, knows them and will teach me.

Not sure what "Grappler Beating Basics" is. A book?
Nevertheless it's not about who can beat who and fancier escapes. It's about the fundamental techniques/ideas and whether you get to practice them against competent grapplers.

[m1k3]

A MMA fighter (short term training, young, big, confident) I've been talking to at work recently asked my what my defense or "what I would do about" a choke hold properly held with the hand in the crook of the elbow (he demonstrated in the air) I told him, "well grab me" and i gave him my back (not a commonly taught or sound tactical move I'll agree)

He grabbed me from a standing position and clamped down pretty hard. I quickly jammed my chin into his elbow, grabbed his arm with both hands and hugged it, then sank my weight, putting him enough off balance to drive him back into a wall.

He was still holding pretty hard, but I had bought myself some space to attack with the hand with the worst leverage on the grab and the better shot at 'vital targets' I opted for a hard fist to the front of his thigh.

He slacked of and started complain, i got free of the hold and listened to his argument.

I should note this is a defense you learn standing in your first month, and apply on the ground in your first year.

"well no if we were on the ground and I hand my hips like this and my feet wrapped around you........"

what he referenced as a rear naked choke.

He had told me already that his plan for such a hold was to relax, then when 'most guys' slacken the hold (presumably because you are going unconscious) you 'like bust out' and reverse the position in some way 'really quick'

Now, knowing that 'relax and hurt' is already a big part of my fighting training on the ground, how exactly is this better training?

I train hard not to get into a choke like that, and its of a handful of spots that we now have to tap out of, unless there are a few things wrong with the hold and we can get out of it.

I did offer for him to try and put me like that, we're discussing glove choice right now. He declined to fight immediately and bare knuckled

I'm sorry, but your friend doesn't sound like he knows what he is talking about. Once someone has a rear naked choked locked in you have about 6 seconds, give or take a couple, to get lose before you go to sleep.

The best defense is to not let them get it locked in by controlling one of the arms, keeping the chin tucked in to protect the throat and to turn towards the choking arm in your attempt to escape. If they get the choke sunk in the best thing to do is tap, because the chances of you getting out of it are slim to none.

As for just relax and then bust out when they slacken the hold is really really stupid. As a BJJ player if I get you in a choke I hold it until you tap or go to sleep. Not tapping is a good way to get hurt when you are training.

Also, the clamped down pretty hard is another good sign he doesn't know what he is doing. When you have an RNC locked up all you do is squeeze your elbows together, it is not a power or strength move, it is a leverage move. The person on the receiving end should not be feeling a lot of pressure.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Also, the clamped down pretty hard is another good sign he doesn't know what he is doing. When you have an RNC locked up all you do is squeeze your elbows together, it is not a power or strength move, it is a leverage move. The person on the receiving end should not be feeling a lot of pressure.

Correct, a sure sign of lack of experience and skill in grappling is submission moves that are "powerfully done".

[punchdrunk]

actually I can't beleive how many people don't know how to rnc, most people just push down and pull up as hard as they can to choke someones wind pipe... which would take minutes to put someone out of action and is more likely to cause permanent damage. A proper rnc literally chokes you out in seconds and relies on stopping bloodflow not stopping breathing!! Squeezing the sides of the neck as opposed to the front and back. AT least in my experience that is.

[sanjuro_ronin]

actually I can't beleive how many people don't know how to rnc, most people just push down and pull up as hard as they can to choke someones wind pipe... which would take minutes to put someone out of action and is more likely to cause permanent damage. A proper rnc literally chokes you out in seconds and relies on stopping bloodflow not stopping breathing!! Squeezing the sides of the neck as opposed to the front and back. AT least in my experience that is.

Some people confuse the "blood" choke with an "air" choke, well, probably most people do that.
Even what constitutes a strangle and choke is "debated", but I was originally taught that a strangle is cutting off the blood to the brain and a choke was cutting off the air.
Look at some of those old time defense VS a RNC, they told you to turn your chin into the crook of the choking arm, those exposing the sides of your neck to the actual pressure, in effect giving up the "air choke" to a "blood choke".
It had its merits, certainly air chokes are more dangerous than blood chokes because of the potential damage to the wind pipe, but blood chokes will take you out quicker.

[m1k3]

I think a big thing with the RNC is if your opponent is feeling pain you are doing it wrong. With a blood choke the worst you should feel is mild discomfort.

Thats part of what makes them so efficient. If your opponent is not a grappler he doesn't even realize he's in danger.

[OdderMensch]

"Wait until they relax"?
Not sure what your friend was trying to say there.

M1k3 figured out what I was trying to say.

I think you're misquoting that assertion. Your sifu was not mentioned. Mr Punch said if you wanted to improve your tactics of getting up and so forth, you should practice against grapplers at a grappling school. e.g. They would know a lot more about good hold downs and submissions that you could train against.

I was up a bit late responding

No my Sifu was never mentioned, just that I was delusional for believing that my WC Sifu could teach me how to use my WC to defeat grapplers (via Di Tong) instead of learning Grappling. Learning from grapplers is a fine thing, sparring against them is good to, but what I have learned so far 'closely resembles' proper ground fighting and thats just my one page quick synopsis, not a detailed analysis of my entire ground fighting system.

Not sure what "Grappler Beating Basics" is. A book?

Video, been out a while, might go into circulation again soon!

[Edmund]

No my Sifu was never mentioned, just that I was delusional for believing that my WC Sifu could teach me how to use my WC to defeat grapplers (via Di Tong) instead of learning Grappling. Learning from grapplers is a fine thing, sparring against them is good to, but what I have learned so far 'closely resembles' proper ground fighting and thats just my one page quick synopsis, not a detailed analysis of my entire ground fighting system.

How often to you practice your techniques and spar with your sifu as your partner?

[couch]

Wing chun will have its day in MMA, but no-one will recognise it, they wont know what it looks like

That's because you can't fight with patty-cake.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Has anyone seen someone trained in Wing Chun compete in Mixed Martial Arts? I was wondering how a Wing Chun practitioner will do against other fighting arts in a sports setting as well real life.

Some guy named lavecki (sp.?)competed in MMA. Wing Chun will not be successful in MMA (as a rule) as long as WC stylists have their heads in the clouds, and believe in magic. I saw a seminar post talking about revealing the secrets of joint power... LOL. In addition WC instructors need be more willing to update their material. Master Wong and Sifu Redmond have done a pretty good job of updating their material; However, it is not quite fully modernized.

The training methods of WC need to be updated as well. If you watch a number of WC schools train, they do one thing in training, but they fight differently in practice. The training and fighting should be a closer match.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

from my experiences most chokes from beginners aren't really chokes at all. They are more like cranks. Most people tapout from the pain before they go to sleep. Even in organizations like UFC you see most fighters tap before they pass out thats pain on the cervical vertibre not lack of blood flow. Guo Lo (?spelling) is designed for combat right? Alan Orr's guys are fighting and winning in the cage less we forget?

[monji112000]

Here's one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL_qJz8VsXI

in all fairness to Steve it was clear he wasn't prepared. If you ask the people who were there they say the same thing. He clearly did EVERYTHING WRONG on the ground. If he had a little bit a ground skill he could have stood the fight back up quickly from side control...
at least he had the balls to step up .. more so on such short notice. Funny thing is they both went to jail for that fight. MMA was illegal in Canada at the time. Go figure. Put a Olympic Judoka on the Cage with no striking and no BJJ.. and you get the same result 9/10 times. its a formula you have to follow. Striking + clinching+ ground game. Your clinching and ground game don't have to be world class grappling. You can easily just have a simple get back to my comfort zone. If you train that Hard you can go very far in MMA. Just look at all the one dimensional fights in MMA today. Sure they lose to better people.. but the UFC/WEC both have allot of ONE style fights who just know enough in other areas.

*as a note Steve is a VERY good Striker who cross trains with many other style fighters. IE THAI FIGHTERS. He is a no nonsense fighter, who has trained people who have fought in Thailand and China (sanda). Nobody that ever competed for anything more than a few fights though. It would have been a much better match if he was more distance oriented and prepared for a the fight.