Why does Black Flag history keep changing?

[chusauli]

BTW,

Yip Man's name "Chum Kiu" (Seeking bridge) is also different than other branches' use of Chum Kiu (Sinking Bridge).

Dan Chi Sao is also a creation of Yip Man, other branches do not use this, and only recently adopted it.

[Vajramusti]

RE;"We know from history, Yip Man and Yuen Kay Shan were pioneers of Luk Sao. Actually YKS created it, and Yip Man adopted it."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good post! On the above- I don't know- could have been reverse, or product of somerimes working out together.Not a big deal.

In any case. Ip Man Wing Chun has very distinct and unique markers and signatures.

joy chaudhuri

[t_niehoff]

Alex,

Without this turning into an attack on any one WCK branch, let's examine the earlier WCK that we find in Fushan, Guang Dong, Cao Xi, etc. Let's be objective as possible, as there might be facts we all don't know. With critical thinking, we can analyze what is and then scrutinize carefully. If we have no reference or information, then we don't know anything is true.

When we look at the other branches of WCK in China, unless they adopted the term, or had contact with Yip Man, the name of the first set is "Siu Lien Tao" (Little Training Set). An example is Pan Nam WCK, they call their first set SNT because Pan Nam learned a bit from Yip Man. If you see YKS or other branches, they call it SLT.

Other China WCK does the Lop Sao or reverse Huen Sao, whereas Yip Man WCK does it from inside to out. Even when you look at Yip's early students in Futshan, they do it with the reverse Huen Sao... So the inside Huen Sao was taught when Yip Man began teaching in HK after 1949.

Other WCK branches do a rolling Sup Ji Sao. In Yip Man WCK, we do it straight down, then up. Yik Kam SLT retains the double Wu Sao of Emei 12 Zhuang. Even some of Yip Man's students do a rolling Sup Ji Sao opening like Leung Sheung or Ho Kam Ming...so the Sup Ji Sao has a distinct trademark or Yip Man.

We know from history, Yip Man and Yuen Kay Shan were pioneers of Luk Sao. Actually YKS created it, and Yip Man adopted it.

Fak Sao in Biu Jee is horizontal or vertical in earlier systems. In Yip Man system in HK, it comes from down to up.

In Yip Man's Jong, he starts with the Lop Geng Sao in 1st and 2nd sections, followed by the 3rd section of Pak Sao 3 X, followed by Fuk. The signature is there. Other Jong sets in earlier WCK do not have that pattern. Even TWC, which is a Yip Man WCK derivative, also has these signatures in their Jong set.

So my discussion here is "if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, has feathers like a duck, has a bill like a duck....", you call it for what it is...a duck. Similarly, if a WCK has the above signatures, it is remarkably coincidental to Yip Man's WCK.

Of course, Yip Man and others may have had coincidentally the "same dream", "mysterious teacher in the shadows", "sworn secret that he could not talk about", "blood oath" or other myriad stories that we hear about in martial arts that explain these remarkable coincidences.

No one is defaming or calling anyone a liar, or doubting anyone's word, or questioning character, or doubting anyone's lineage, but at least there is some logical analysis and critical thinking, and I hope to give my fellow WCK brothers some reference point to base their logic on.

If history shows me to be wrong, I would gladly retract my words and admit I made a mistake, after all, we are fallible beings. But again, Buddhists believe, "Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." These are words of the Buddha, and a good guide for critical thinking.

BTW, A good reference book might be Leung Ting's Book, "Roots and Branches of Wing Tsun". Of course seeing the myriad multiple lineages in person and on youtube also helps.

Hope this helps, Alex.

And that's the tip of the iceberg.

It's funny when people come forward with claims that their WCK lineage is "the original" or "very old" or "coming directly from Shaolin" but nevertheless have many of the elements of their curriculum coming from the Yip Man era ("siu nim", "chum kiu" for seeking, calling the knife form baat jaam doh, the luk sao platform of chi sao, the dan chi sao, chi gerk, the signature movements in the forms, and so on).

[chusauli]

Chr Two Ni
E Jya La
Mi Li Ju
Bwo Li Dan La Ye
Ning Jye Li

[eomonroe00]

all kung fu has similarities, all styles, does that mean they all took from each other?

[Wayfaring]

And that's the tip of the iceberg.

It's funny when people come forward with claims that their WCK lineage is "the original" or "very old" or "coming directly from Shaolin" but nevertheless have many of the elements of their curriculum coming from the Yip Man era ("siu nim", "chum kiu" for seeking, calling the knife form baat jaam doh, the luk sao platform of chi sao, the dan chi sao, chi gerk, the signature movements in the forms, and so on).

HFY has a completely different chi sau platform than the Yip Man system. Elements of it are also reflected in signature movements in the forms, which make the forms different than Yip Man signature forms. This plus simple logistics of migration place it as a mainland China branch of WCK as opposed to a Hong Kong branch of WCK as Yip Man derivatives are.

[t_niehoff]

HFY has a completely different chi sau platform than the Yip Man system. Elements of it are also reflected in signature movements in the forms, which make the forms different than Yip Man signature forms. This plus simple logistics of migration place it as a mainland China branch of WCK as opposed to a Hong Kong branch of WCK as Yip Man derivatives are.

No, HFY uses the luk sao platform that YKS created and Yip Man adopted. You may do things differently now, but it came from Yip Man WCK. HFY forms are TWC forms that were modified, and TWC forms have the Yip Man signatures all over them (not surprising since Cheung learned from Yip). Not to mention that HFY has terminology created by Yip Man, other drills created by Yip Man (like the dan chi sao), etc.

And you can't show anything about HFY logistics other than it began in San Francisco.

[Ned]

T so emotional and belligerent.

[Wayfaring]

No, HFY uses the luk sao platform that YKS created and Yip Man adopted. You may do things differently now, but it came from Yip Man WCK. HFY forms are TWC forms that were modified, and TWC forms have the Yip Man signatures all over them (not surprising since Cheung learned from Yip). Not to mention that HFY has terminology created by Yip Man, other drills created by Yip Man (like the dan chi sao), etc.

And you can't show anything about HFY logistics other than it began in San Francisco.

You show such passionate irrationality when speaking of HFY that one would think you have a deep-seated desire to study it, despite all your arguments to the contrary.

[duende]

Alex,

Without this turning into an attack on any one WCK branch, let's examine the earlier WCK that we find in Fushan, Guang Dong, Cao Xi, etc. Let's be objective as possible, as there might be facts we all don't know. With critical thinking, we can analyze what is and then scrutinize carefully. If we have no reference or information, then we don't know anything is true.

When we look at the other branches of WCK in China, unless they adopted the term, or had contact with Yip Man, the name of the first set is "Siu Lien Tao" (Little Training Set). An example is Pan Nam WCK, they call their first set SNT because Pan Nam learned a bit from Yip Man. If you see YKS or other branches, they call it SLT.

Or maybe it was always intended to be both. The little idea and the little drills to support the little idea.

No attacks felt or meant here either btw.

Other China WCK does the Lop Sao or reverse Huen Sao, whereas Yip Man WCK does it from inside to out. Even when you look at Yip's early students in Futshan, they do it with the reverse Huen Sao... So the inside Huen Sao was taught when Yip Man began teaching in HK after 1949.

No offense, but what you have written here sounds like a quite an assumption imo. As from my perspective, whether "Huen Sao" is done from inside to out, or outside to in is dependant on the box theories. Meaning the concepts of Loi Mun/Ngoi Mun, and not whether or not they learned WC before or after 1949, which ignores a lot of history btw.

I would say this technique has roots more likely in earlier animal forms such as "cat washes face". WC just took the technique, and defined it with a greater awareness of the physics of body mechanics, defensive gate theory, as well as a focus on maximum efficiency.

But then again, our perspectives are different because we typically employ dai huen sau which is a much larger circle then those seen in the YM SNT. We do this to so as to "cover our gates". The smaller huen found in YM for us is just a part of our Chi Kiu rolling drills and is used to prevent wrist locks.

Other WCK branches do a rolling Sup Ji Sao. In Yip Man WCK, we do it straight down, then up. Yik Kam SLT retains the double Wu Sao of Emei 12 Zhuang. Even some of Yip Man's students do a rolling Sup Ji Sao opening like Leung Sheung or Ho Kam Ming...so the Sup Ji Sao has a distinct trademark or Yip Man.

It is sometimes difficult understanding other WC's terminology. So I'm not sure what shape/technique you are referring to here. As we do not use the term Sup Ji Sao. Tried to find a visual example online, but had no success. So I'll have to with hold any response here.

We know from history, Yip Man and Yuen Kay Shan were pioneers of Luk Sao. Actually YKS created it, and Yip Man adopted it.

We don't use the term Luk Sao either. But from looking online, it looks just like a game... a version of a Bong/Lop drill.

Are you saying that YKS invented the transition from Bong to Lop?? To be honest, I do not personally see any real purpose for this Luk Sao drill nor do see any real world application for it. At least not what I found on youtube etc... This kind of transition is just begging for a trap imo, as it provides no leverage, no control, and no real influence on your opponents energy. What good is sensitivity, if you are not in a position to do anything effectively??

Anyways, Chi Sau is such a general term, it is silly imo to give credit to any one person for creating a "sticking hand" drill. Heck, give me a half hour, and partner and I'll invent a rolling platform myself! Be it single, two hand, or two feet for that matter.

For us Chi Sau is about chasing space, not chasing hands.

As for "bong lop" we utilize two versions of a "bong lop" drill. But the body mechanics required for Bong/Lop fit into the rolling platform of Kiu Sau, not Chi Sau.

One is for Duei Ying facing Hok Bong and opening up the line, while the other is for Jeui Ying tracing and changing of the line as in Ying Bong. While there are some similarities, the footwork, bridging/body mechanics, and facing are all different.

Fak Sao in Biu Jee is horizontal or vertical in earlier systems. In Yip Man system in HK, it comes from down to up.

I was able to find Fak Sau online. It looks similar to either a front facing Saat Geng Sau (which we prefer not to do), or a horizontal Fut Sau. Interestingly enough, we have three Fut Sau's in the second section of our SNT. Horizontal, Vertical, and Diagonal. The SLT drilling for these are found in our Fut Sau/Fau Kiu Kiu Sau section of our Sei Dim Buhn Kiu Sau Jong Faat.

Anyways, my point here is that there is much more out than just YM understandings and presentations of these shapes and techniques in discussion. I can give you explanations, uses, logic flow, body mechanics, historical perspectives for all the above examples you mentioned from a distinctly different perspective than YM.

And FWIW, by saying this, I mean no insult to YM or his legacy. i actually have a great respect for him and what he has done for WCK.

I also suspect he knew alot more WC then he let out btw.

So my discussion here is "if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, has feathers like a duck, has a bill like a duck....", you call it for what it is...a duck. Similarly, if a WCK has the above signatures, it is remarkably coincidental to Yip Man's WCK.

Or maybe if it looks like WCK, functions like WCK, has the concepts of WCK... then it is WCK.

I don't agree that YM has to have his own signature to the extent you do. Then of course, there is also the many subjective understandings/ variations of what this YM signature is anyways.

Thanks for your response.

And I'll check out that book on Leung Ting. If nothing else, it will help us communicate better.

regards,

Alex

[duende]

BTW,

Yip Man's name "Chum Kiu" (Seeking bridge) is also different than other branches' use of Chum Kiu (Sinking Bridge).

Dan Chi Sao is also a creation of Yip Man, other branches do not use this, and only recently adopted it.

Yeah, I remember very well people being freaked out by or at least surprized by our SINKING BRIDGE explanation of Chum Kiu.

I seem to recall you being surprized too Robert. But I could be wrong, that was a long time ago.

As for Dan Chi Sau. Again.. our Dan Chi Sau is different than YM, as the YM version has no heaven/upper gate coverage. And neutralizes incoming energy in a different manner than the way we do.

Btw, we also have a Dan Kiu Sau, and and Dan Ch Kiu... ****e... guess he must of invented those too.

Seriously though.. it's all good. I appreciate our differences actually. It's also cool finding and seeing similarities too!

Best

[duende]

No, HFY uses the luk sao platform that YKS created and Yip Man adopted. You may do things differently now, but it came from Yip Man WCK. HFY forms are TWC forms that were modified, and TWC forms have the Yip Man signatures all over them (not surprising since Cheung learned from Yip). Not to mention that HFY has terminology created by Yip Man, other drills created by Yip Man (like the dan chi sao), etc.

And you can't show anything about HFY logistics other than it began in San Francisco.

The only explanation I can give for this seriously whacked conclusion of yours is that you probably saw some former Moy Yat instructor transitioning to Hung Fa Yi.

Other than that, your other assumptions have been addressed, shot down, and put to rest long ago.

You must be truly bored T.

Because not more than three pages back, you said you wanted nothing whatsoever to do with us. And now, here once again.. you go spending all this time and energy.

[t_niehoff]

The only explanation I can give for this seriously whacked conclusion of yours is that you probably saw some former Moy Yat instructor transitioning to Hung Fa Yi.

I saw Garrett Gee transitioning to HFY.

Other than that, your other assumptions have been addressed, shot down, and put to rest long ago.

Nothing has been shot down. It's patently obvious that HFY is a Yip Man WCK offshoot.

You must be truly bored T.

Because not more than three pages back, you said you wanted nothing whatsoever to do with us. And now, here once again.. you go spending all this time and energy.

Oh, I won't talk WCK with you guys since you guys are in fantasy land. But it's always worthwhile to clear up fraudulant claims.

[duende]

I saw Garrett Gee transitioning to HFY.

Really... all from one seminar where you sat on the bench and didn't touch hands with anyone. So much for critical thinking...

Nothing has been shot down. It's patently obvious that HFY is a Yip Man WCK offshoot.

So says the self-proclaimed expert.

Oh, I won't talk WCK with you guys since you guys are in fantasy land. But it's always worthwhile to clear up fraudulant claims.

Well then... you must have your hands full at home. Always a pleasure T

[chusauli]

Or maybe it was always intended to be both. The little idea and the little drills to support the little idea.

No attacks felt or meant here either btw.



No offense, but what you have written here sounds like a quite an assumption imo. As from my perspective, whether "Huen Sao" is done from inside to out, or outside to in is dependant on the box theories. Meaning the concepts of Loi Mun/Ngoi Mun, and not whether or not they learned WC before or after 1949, which ignores a lot of history btw.

I would say this technique has roots more likely in earlier animal forms such as "cat washes face". WC just took the technique, and defined it with a greater awareness of the physics of body mechanics, defensive gate theory, as well as a focus on maximum efficiency.

But then again, our perspectives are different because we typically employ dai huen sau which is a much larger circle then those seen in the YM SNT. We do this to so as to "cover our gates". The smaller huen found in YM for us is just a part of our Chi Kiu rolling drills and is used to prevent wrist locks.




It is sometimes difficult understanding other WC's terminology. So I'm not sure what shape/technique you are referring to here. As we do not use the term Sup Ji Sao. Tried to find a visual example online, but had no success. So I'll have to with hold any response here.



We don't use the term Luk Sao either. But from looking online, it looks just like a game... a version of a Bong/Lop drill.

Are you saying that YKS invented the transition from Bong to Lop?? To be honest, I do not personally see any real purpose for this Luk Sao drill nor do see any real world application for it. At least not what I found on youtube etc... This kind of transition is just begging for a trap imo, as it provides no leverage, no control, and no real influence on your opponents energy. What good is sensitivity, if you are not in a position to do anything effectively??

Anyways, Chi Sau is such a general term, it is silly imo to give credit to any one person for creating a "sticking hand" drill. Heck, give me a half hour, and partner and I'll invent a rolling platform myself! Be it single, two hand, or two feet for that matter.

For us Chi Sau is about chasing space, not chasing hands.

As for "bong lop" we utilize two versions of a "bong lop" drill. But the body mechanics required for Bong/Lop fit into the rolling platform of Kiu Sau, not Chi Sau.

One is for Duei Ying facing Hok Bong and opening up the line, while the other is for Jeui Ying tracing and changing of the line as in Ying Bong. While there are some similarities, the footwork, bridging/body mechanics, and facing are all different.



I was able to find Fak Sau online. It looks similar to either a front facing Saat Geng Sau (which we prefer not to do), or a horizontal Fut Sau. Interestingly enough, we have three Fut Sau's in the second section of our SNT. Horizontal, Vertical, and Diagonal. The SLT drilling for these are found in our Fut Sau/Fau Kiu Kiu Sau section of our Sei Dim Buhn Kiu Sau Jong Faat.

Anyways, my point here is that there is much more out than just YM understandings and presentations of these shapes and techniques in discussion. I can give you explanations, uses, logic flow, body mechanics, historical perspectives for all the above examples you mentioned from a distinctly different perspective than YM.

And FWIW, by saying this, I mean no insult to YM or his legacy. i actually have a great respect for him and what he has done for WCK.

I also suspect he knew alot more WC then he let out btw.



Or maybe if it looks like WCK, functions like WCK, has the concepts of WCK... then it is WCK.

I don't agree that YM has to have his own signature to the extent you do. Then of course, there is also the many subjective understandings/ variations of what this YM signature is anyways.

Thanks for your response.

And I'll check out that book on Leung Ting. If nothing else, it will help us communicate better.

regards,

Alex

Alex,

Siu Nim Tao is Yip Man's term, not anyone else's. Siu Lien Tao is the original name of the term.

Most of the mainland WCK uses "Huen Sao" which is opposite to Yip Man's...the Huen when Yip Man started to teach in HK was from inner to outer gate. All systems have a circle hand, for example Tai Ji has various sizes of cloud hands.

Luk Sao or Poon Sao is the standard rolling hands of Chi Sao. Poor Chi Sao is chasing hands. Proper Chi Sao is chasing body - in other words, tracking the space and controlling the space of the opponent, so I agree with you here.

All WCK uses Dui Ying/Juie Ying.

Fak Sao or Fut Sao (aka Mun Sao) is either horizontal or Diagonally upward or vertical from down to up. In Yip Man's Biu Jee set, it has changed from the mainland China counterparts which use a horizontal or hand upwards type. Refer to the Biu Jee of mainland China sets and you will see Yip Man's WCK is very distinct.

I did not say YKS invented Bong to Lop, you are. YKS created the Luk/Poon Sao exercise of 4 variations.

Thank you for your time.