Why does Black Flag history keep changing?

[Hendrik]

WCML era???? HA HA HA That is a riot!! Thanks H. that was really a good one. Haven't laughed that hard in awhile.


But what does this have to say about YOU and the recent change in direction of your posts? This was never the focus of what you post about and you know it.

Obviously, you only recently came to understand the importance and significance of this historical connection. Same with the Military connection!


PS... Are you now going to claim that you are an authority on the Hung Mun and Secret Societies too?? What a joke.

Don't worry, they'll be more history released soon.





You are right. There is a big difference between Yik Kam's understanding/version of SLT, and that of the WCK Opera Member's.

And PSS....

Let's put things into perspective Hendrick. Lee Man Mau was only one of many leaders of the uprisings.

Again, you are trying to pass off one piece of the puzzle as the whole picture.

You love to Twisting words isnt it? hahaha.

You want to be the Champion of Toung Fu contest? make my day.

see, facts in history are facts, doesnt matter if it is you who present it or me.

As I told some of you years ago, enlightent me, convert me with solid tracking evidence I am always open and willing to be convert, if you have one. Show evidence.

Otherwise, Thanks but no Thanks for you Toung Fu games.

[Bo_toxic]

An article about fong wing chun and yim wing chun. Can someone translate this article for me. Many thanks.

武林史上方詠春與嚴詠春是兩位不同門派的武術大師，方詠春之福建永春白鶴拳是名譽福建省的白鶴拳種。為何後 人誤傳福建永春白鶴拳與廣東詠春拳有關？其原因有三。其一，福建永春白鶴拳之永春是地方之名，不是拳種。其 二，方詠春是人名不是拳種。其三，方詠春與嚴詠春，同名不同姓。两人拳種不同。白鶴拳就是白鶴拳，詠春拳就 是詠春拳。但為何後人又誤傳詠春拳出自福建永春鶴拳？其中因為詠春拳手法有鹤形和蛇形之手法。但鹤形和蛇形 手法均在中國很多門派都存在，這並不代表詠春拳與白鶴拳同源。以馮京作馬凉的错誤傳說在武林界中实在举之不 盡，筆者是福建莆田白鶴拳師方洽庄後人。〈福建武林誌〉

[duende]

You love to Twisting words isnt it? hahaha.

You want to be the Champion of Toung Fu contest? make my day.

see, facts in history are facts, doesnt matter if it is you who present it or me.

As I told some of you years ago, enlightent me, convert me with solid tracking evidence I am always open and willing to be convert, if you have one. Show evidence.

Otherwise, Thanks but no Thanks for you Toung Fu games.

Keep on editing your post Hendrik. It shows how upset you truly are.

I am content and accept that we all have different understandings, and perspectives to share. This is a forum after all.

You on the other hand can not accept anyone else's knowledge unless you put your personal stamp on it and call it your own.

No Tongue Fu... Just giving your energy right back to you.

[t_niehoff]

Do you actually practice Chi Sau?

Not anymore except when teaching (and I'm not teaching). I also no longer use the training wheels on my bicycle either. That's what chi sao is -- WCK with the training wheels on. Now, if you like watching bike with training wheels races, then chi sao competitions will be your cup of tea.

[chusauli]

Ok Robert, thanks for the clarification on your position.

Of course, no one here is condoning this kind of behavior you mentioned in regards to gangsters etc.

However, my point is, like it or not... the Triads of today developed out of the secret societies of yesterday. And in both regards there exists still, much that is not publicly documented.

Alex,

Great, we have agreement.

The original secret society was altruistic and sought the betterment of an oppressed society. They had the thought of "Fan Qing Fu Ming" - but now, there is no Ming or Qing.

Triads today are the criminal underworld. We have to be clear of what secret societies are today. WCK did not come from Triads; it came from the original Tian Di Hui. A major difference.

[Wayfaring]

Triads today are the criminal underworld. We have to be clear of what secret societies are today. WCK did not come from Triads; it came from the original Tian Di Hui. A major difference.

One man's criminal is another man's revolutionary war hero.

The large part of the Eastern US was populated with people from debtor's prisons and overpopulated jails in Europe. Criminals who comprised the original US Army in the revolutionary war.

Of course modern criminal elements are missing altruistic ideals to fight for - achieving riches through vice and gang loyalty.

But what separates them? The lack of a noble cause to unite behind?

This is the problem when trying to classify large groups of people. Human nature is intricate and has such potential for nobility as well as descendency to baser evils. Historians just supply a perspective.

[Yoshiyahu]

Not anymore except when teaching (and I'm not teaching). I also no longer use the training wheels on my bicycle either. That's what chi sao is -- WCK with the training wheels on. Now, if you like watching bike with training wheels races, then chi sao competitions will be your cup of tea.

Do you still practice any Wing Chun forms?

[chusauli]

One man's criminal is another man's revolutionary war hero.

The large part of the Eastern US was populated with people from debtor's prisons and overpopulated jails in Europe. Criminals who comprised the original US Army in the revolutionary war.

Of course modern criminal elements are missing altruistic ideals to fight for - achieving riches through vice and gang loyalty.

But what separates them? The lack of a noble cause to unite behind?

This is the problem when trying to classify large groups of people. Human nature is intricate and has such potential for nobility as well as descendency to baser evils. Historians just supply a perspective.

Good perspective. I appreciate that.

I have to say the issue is selfishness vs. selflessness.

The thug thinks of himself and what he can gain. The scholar warrior thinks of society and how society can benefit.

[duende]

Triads today are the criminal underworld. We have to be clear of what secret societies are today. WCK did not come from Triads; it came from the original Tian Di Hui. A major difference.

Hey Robert,

In regards to history, one must accept both the good and bad. We can not choose to acknowledge only certain elements of our history, and deny the rest.

Tien Dei Wui=Secret Societies
Hung Mun=Secret Societies
Saam Hop Wui (Triads)=Secret Societies.

They are all related. What you see as a major difference, I only see as a factor of time.

Besides, the term "Triads" itself is a highly generalized term. And refers to many many people from many different and distinct organizations that are considered "Triads".

Underground criminal organizations like you mention, such as the 14k in Hong Kong represent only one part.

There are also political members in the Triads. Like certain Taiwan politicians for example.

Also many Martial Artists are also Triad members. Not just those studying WCK.

Anyways, my point is that despite public perception, not all Triad members are simply criminals.

In actuality their membership is much more complex.

Best,

Alex

[Bo_toxic]

Hey Robert,

In regards to history, one must accept both the good and bad. We can not choose to acknowledge only certain elements of our history, and deny the rest.

Tien Dei Wui=Secret Societies
Hung Mun=Secret Societies
Saam Hop Wui (Triads)=Secret Societies.

They are all related. What you see as a major difference, I only see as a factor of time.

Besides, the term "Triads" itself is a highly generalized term. And refers to many many people from many different and distinct organizations that are considered "Triads".

Underground criminal organizations like you mention, such as the 14k in Hong Kong represent only one part.

There are also political members in the Triads. Like certain Taiwan politicians for example.

Also many Martial Artists are also Triad members. Not just those studying WCK.

Anyways, my point is that despite public perception, not all Triad members are simply criminals.

In actuality their membership is much more complex.

Best,

Alex

Alex, you made more sense than Hendrik and Robert Chu together.

The word "Triad" was originally used by the British to describe the" Tien Dei Wui" society because of their use of a triangular symbol.
This secret society began as a political revolt against the Qing Dynasty. The practice of Wing Chun was included within Hung Mun or Tien Dei Wui as well.
In more recent years the phrase "triad" has grown to include any underground , secret , criminal, or Mafia type organization. Most people associate triads with criminal organizations. That's an assumption based on movies, tv and a lack of historical knowledge.
Triad (traditional Chinese: ; simplified Chinese: ; pinyin: Sānhéhuì; literally "Triad Society") is a term that describes many branches of Chinese underground society and/or organizations based in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Singapore, Macau and also operating in mainland China.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Anyways, my point is that despite public perception, not all Triad members are simply criminals.

Neither are all Mafia or Yakuza members, it doesn't change that the organizations are.

[Eric_H]

You love to Twisting words isnt it? hahaha.

You want to be the Champion of Toung Fu contest? make my day.

see, facts in history are facts, doesnt matter if it is you who present it or me.

As I told some of you years ago, enlightent me, convert me with solid tracking evidence I am always open and willing to be convert, if you have one. Show evidence.

Otherwise, Thanks but no Thanks for you Toung Fu games.

Hendrik,

I think everyone's still waiting for real evidence about white crane having ANYTHING to do with Wing Chun. All your long rambling, drug-induced posts about ging energy have provided no actual value in terms of real evidence.

Basically your point is:
The wing chun you do, which is MIXED WITH WHITE CRANE, expresses energy the SAME AS WHITE CRANE. Wow, that's a shocker. Wonder where that came from...

What else you wanna argue? That Bong Sao makes WC come from white crane?? Hung Gar has a tool called bong sao too, I think maybe your wacko white crane comes from Hung Gar, can you prove it doesn't?

[Pacman]

Yim Wing Chun learned Fujian White Crane from Fong Chut Leung before developing it further to have it become the early version of Wing Chun

This is written by a well known Kung Fu historian (forgot the name) in his book 6 1/2 point staff

[Hendrik]

Yim Wing Chun learned Fujian White Crane from Fong Chut Leung before developing it further to have it become the early version of Wing Chun

This is written by a well known Kung Fu historian (forgot the name) in his book 6 1/2 point staff

Yup. and some just cant accept it for thier own personal reason.

[Eric_H]

An article about fong wing chun and yim wing chun. Can someone translate this article for me. Many thanks.

武林史上方詠春與嚴詠春是兩位不同門派的武術大師，方詠春之福建永春白鶴拳是名譽福建省的白鶴拳種。為何後 人誤傳福建永春白鶴拳與廣東詠春拳有關？其原因有三。其一，福建永春白鶴拳之永春是地方之名，不是拳種。其 二，方詠春是人名不是拳種。其三，方詠春與嚴詠春，同名不同姓。两人拳種不同。白鶴拳就是白鶴拳，詠春拳就 是詠春拳。但為何後人又誤傳詠春拳出自福建永春鶴拳？其中因為詠春拳手法有鹤形和蛇形之手法。但鹤形和蛇形 手法均在中國很多門派都存在，這並不代表詠春拳與白鶴拳同源。以馮京作馬凉的错誤傳說在武林界中实在举之不 盡，筆者是福建莆田白鶴拳師方洽庄後人。〈福建武林誌〉

Hello Bo_Toxic,

I ran into one of my friends who speaks Chinese this weekend and got them to help me translate this article.

Apparently it was written by a descendant of Fong Hop Jong, who was one of the Fong White Crane Boxing Masters from Fukien province. The purpose of the article is to clear up misconceptions between the two styles called "wing chun" after years of research.

(Translation/Edit as best I could get it to make sense for english readers
**************************
In the Martial Arts community Fong Wing Chun and Yim Wing Chun and the systems they represent are different. Fukien White Crane boxing is represented by the Fong lineage. Why is it that people confuse white crane with wing chun? Primarily for three main reasons: 1. When talking about Fukien Wing Chun white crane, "Wing Chun" can be referrencing a place, not a style or system. 2. Wing Chun is a person, Though Fong Wing Chun and Yim Wing Chun have similar names, the last name is different, meaning they don't come from the same family and are not the same person. 3. Crane and snake movement exist both in Fukien White Crane and in Wing Chun, however movements tied to crane and snake exist in tons of other kung fu systems, so one can not reliably say one begot the other.
************************

So, if my translation is correct, it pokes a number of big holes in Hendrik's theories. If a white crane master is willing to state that the two systems are different, who are we going to believe? I person who lives in China, is a descendant of a master of the art and actually understand the culture, or some guy who repeats himself all over the internet like a babbling fool like Hendrik?

Honestly, this makes a lot of sense, because Yik Kam's wing chun system, only has Siu Lin Tao or "little drilling in the beginning", it doesn't have chum kiu of biu gee like the rest of the world's wing chun. It's probably likely that Yik Kam learned some white crane and Emei or whatever else and just decided to call it that based on the drilling format of all the different things he learned rather than any credible link to the system called wing chun. Did Yik Kam even call his system "Wing Chun" during his lifetime? Or was that tacked on by his descendants?

For that matter, how come no other Wing Chun in the world links back to anything having to do with Emei? GM Yip man never mentioned it, none of the three systems from GM Leung Jan mention it, nothing coming from Wong Wa Bo at all mentions anything having to do with Emei! Where did it all come from? It has to be Yik Kam!

It seems that people like Hendrik only know 1/2 the story and are making up the rest (probably from all the drugs that go with the 70's songs). If the article is correct that means systems like Hendrik's half-breed "wing chun" are only making the confusion worse.