Boxing

[Silumkid]

All right then....so it seems as if all replies to this question have been "Yes, in boxing, the heel comes up."

Now, in Shaolin, I have been taught that one should pivot from and keep grounded the heels to get a "push" through the heel, up the leg into the waist, thus expressing power through the arm to the hand. I have also learned the other method of raising the heel in karate style and boxing. So my question to you all is, have you also tried both methods and if so, which do you prefer?

[ShaolinTiger00]

The balls of your feet are the gas pedal.

The heels are your brakes.

[norther practitioner]

which do you prefer?

depends

on range, twist, etc....

[Christopher M]

Maybe it would be more clear to ask them if they're rooting through the ball of the foot or through the heel? For instance, even if you're rooting through the heel, the heel of one foot may lift up (if you're rooting through the other heel). I don't know anything about "shaolin", but you see this in the "internals" if you're advancing and rooting through the front foot, and the rear one does a follow step (rather than doing a bow as maybe is the more common way for shaolin?). Eg. (1) (2) (3) (4) from http://www.emptyflower.com

Sounds perhaps what like lowsleep was describing?

[sticky fingers]

Thanks for the replies.

[SilentMantis]

Throughout my sparring experiences, i find that the most difficult type of fighter to deal with is a boxer. They throw stiff, quick jabs and they can move well, making them hard to hit. What defense strategies should a mantis practitioner use against a boxer? Should we venture into learning boxing techniques such as slipping, ducking ect and incorporating them into mantis training in order to deal with this threat? Comments

[northernJump]

what about using push kicks to keep them out of punching range. A lot of boxers have trouble defending agains kicks.

[Xdr4g0nx]

I'm new to the art, but i think if we get in close and use a lot of trapping techniqes. Boxers dont really learn how to defend against that, watch one on tv when the start hugging each other they both look really confused. Also my sifu had eluded to the fact that we will learn differnent body movements to absorb the hits, or move part of our body out of harms way.

[GeneChing]

I saw another article on this where Nagaowa was referred to as an MMA fighter.

Filipina boxer 'hurt' by Customs tax bill on championship belt
Jujeath Nagaowa says she was forced to pay Customs tax on her WIBA world title belt or risk 'losing the only evidence' of her championship victory
Ryan Songalia
@ryansongalia
Published 7:37 PM, August 27, 2015
Updated 7:37 PM, Aug 27, 2015


BELTED. Female boxer Jujeath Nagaowa fought her pint-sized heart out to win her first world championship, but had one final foe to overcome to receive her belt: The Bureau of Customs. Photo from Nagaowa's Facebook page

MANILA, Philippines – Can you put a price tag on winning a boxing world championship?

The Bureau of Customs apparently thought so and valued Filipina boxer Jujeath Nagaowa’s Women’s International Boxing Association (WIBA) junior flyweight title at P20,147.77 ($431).

The 27-year-old Nagaowa won the Florida-based organization’s 108-pound title on June 6 when she traveled to Macau to defeat Chinese boxer Luo Yu Jie by 10-round decision. The belt only arrived in the Philippines recently, and the BOC billed the Baguio City-born fighter P5,819 ($124 USD) in taxes – P3,027.13 customs duty and P2,782 value added tax – to retrieve the belt.

Nagaowa shared her story to a friend, who made a Facebook post about her plight that went viral. In a post on her own Facebook, Nagaowa (13-15-1, 8 knockouts) says she was able to retrieve the belt with the help of friends.

“Yes, it’s true & yes it hurts, that after battling full 10 rounds of boxing for this belt, & after some days of agony waiting for it's arrival in my place, so much disappointed coz this big thing of mine is also waiting for me for a trade before claiming it,” Nagaowa’s post reads.

“Life must go on (& am just lucky enough with friends) so must have to pay for it than losing the only evidence I could have that once in my existence, I gambled my life for a lifetime treasure that others may take over my throne but can't take this crown.#‎WIBAIntlChampBelt.”

Requests for comment from Nagaowa, her manager Brico Santig, and WIBA representative Ryan Wissow were not returned.

The championship win comes after 8 previous attempts at world titles that ended in defeats. Nagaowa had previously traveled to South Korea, Japan, Australia, Hong Kong, and Thailand in search of championship gold, only to lose oftentimes on close decisions.


Nagaowa's championship win over Luo Yu Jie

In addition to competing in boxing, Nagaowa has also fought in mixed martial arts, maintaining a 2-0 record in competitions with One Championship.

Female boxers, even those at the championship level, rarely if ever get television coverage and typically make significantly smaller purses than their male counterparts. Many also work secondary jobs to support themselves, as was chronicled in an article in The Atlantic in January of this year.

One Philippine-based boxing promoter told Rappler that he was “shocked” about Nagaowa’s situation, saying he had never had that issue with Customs before.

“When they see us with belts they greet us with smiles and congratulate us,” said the promoter.

BOC public relations officer Belle Maestro told Rappler that the agency had only heard of her issue through the viral Facebook post on Thursday, August 27. She said no formal complaint had been filed with the office.

“We’re checking right now what really happened,” Maestro said. “We’re also verifying if awards such as a belt is taxable or not. Apparently it may be, but it could be tax exempted if she requested for it.”

Maestro invited Jujeath to coordinate with BOC directly to apply for a tax exemption for the belt with Department of Finance (DOF), which she says could authorize the tax exemption.

BOC Commissioner Alberto Lina tells Rappler he has asked NAIA district collector Edgar Macabeo to explain why the championship belt was taxed. He also ordered Macabeo submit a report on the incident.

“There is a policy that the rewards and trophies may be exempted from paying taxes if they are able to secure a tax exemption from the DOF. If they failed to secure a tax exempt from the DOF, then they would have to pay the duties and taxes,” said Lina. – Rappler.com

[Youngmantis]

well if you were truly going to fight a boxer, lets say a real fight, no rules, just kick low at the knee caps

[SilentMantis]

Thanks for your replies, and i agree with using low kicks to keep boxers out of punching range. However, i'm a little concerned with limiting myself to one technique. I do know that in a real fight my instinct tells me to kick right off the bat, but i'd like to be capable of more than that. what other alternatives?

[Tainan Mantis]

SilentMantis,
It is good that you practice with other stylists like boxers.
There are a lot of good things to be said about boxing.

I believe that under boxing rules the method is close to perfect.
In other words you have to learn that style to play that game.

Since those 4 punches are already in Mantis it couldn't hurt to do that.

If you have a friend or partner who is willing to try his boxing vs your Mantis that is good too.
You will have a partner who is trying to hit your head very hard while you try to apply your Mantis.

This is a good way to practice after you are very fluent with some of your 2 man drills.

As for strategy.
My guess is your opponent is thinking offensive, not defensive.
You should have this mindset too.

NorthernMantis,

I don't suggest the pushkick because that is more useful in competitions where it is against the rules to grab the leg.

Youngmantis,
Although the knee kick seems good in theory rarely does it do anything(not including the takedown version).
This is from my own experience in local skill testing matches.
All I get is scraped or cut skin, but doesn't stop me.

This experience matches my shrfu's experience.
When the knee is bent it is very strong.

Also, this strategy, as well as the push kick strategy is "keep him away" mentality.
Contrast that with the "KO" stratagy of boxing.

More?
Mantis has an interesting habit of using the left hand to "seal" the opponents right hand while simultaneusly using the right hand to perform straight punch-hook punch combo.

This is called Di Lo(under leak) and is found in many Mantis forms.

[CHAZ]

Ok what would you guy's do if the boxer you are fighting happend to be an ex kickboxer or even worse a thai boxer, someone who is comfatable in kicking range(especially low line kicks) and in grappling range for their use of elbows and knees

[SilentMantis]

Chaz,
Dealing with kickboxers and thai boxers is a whole new topic. However, kick, thai, and just boxers have something in common. They all use the jab or the punch as a means to set up their next move. I've seen this through experience. I've taken thai boxing and sparred with kickboxers and boxers. This is why i think learning how to effectively use slipping, ducking, rolling, the snap back, and bob and weave will surprise these fighters and create an opening where one can unleash his mantis offense. Mantis already provides the footwork for this to be possible, and i think this is one of the best ways to deal with quick jabs and punches. You can't hit what's not there.

[mantis108]

First off, I agree with Tainan. It won't hurt to know thy foe.

Some observation:

1) Boxers, especially street boxers, know how to clinch and fight in a clinch. They also have a bag of tricks that you will be caught off guard if you think in terms of sport version of it. So to do trapping is not really the safest bet.

2) I stress on Tainan's point about the lack of aggressiveness in quite a lot of Kung Fu stylists today. Boxers are trained to unleash hell in the smallest time frame possible. That's why they training in 3 mins rounds. If you manage to take that away from them, you will have a better chance of gaining the upper hand. You will have to gain dominance by literally knocking the wind out of them. Strong and fast side kick to the rib would work wonder except that your friend may not appreciate it as much as you would. I have tried with success on one of my students, who had amature league boxing experience and also outweighed me more than 50 lbs, the following technique. Once you get an openning in the centerline, you immediately chain punch the openning and don't let up no matter what. The idea is to get him back up and you follow in till the rope. That way you take the fight out of his hands. The problem is chain punch isn't a mantis technique per se. The other thing is that it is not easy to pull off and when it does you have only one chance to work him. If he knows that you can do that on him, the chance of a repeat is not likely. BTW, chain punch to the centerline work better on boxers who have bad habits such as treading with the heels (re: poor footwork). So do collect intelligence before you make your move.

3) Defanging would be a good idea if boxer is going bare hand. They are used to wrapping their hands. Having iron hand isn't boxing's strong suit. Knocking their jabs around the back of the fist and/or wrist and eblow joint with your knuckles or elbow to destroy that weapon is simple and effective. Also the knife hands chop move in Beng bu 3rd road is also a handy technique for defanging. Againg I don't think your friend will appreciate these though because you are not following the boxing rule with these.

4) Thai boxers used to have great hand techniques until their art became sport and rules are set. Those gorgeous elbow techniques that they have is a reminder of that. Like Tainan pointed out before, the 4 punches and duck, rolling, slipping, snap back, parrying, etc... are in Mantis skill already(and I am talking about traditionally available). Whether the school or the teacher put focus on these things, it is going to be a different story. Mantis is great with close quarter combat stuff (elbows and knees) so I don't see where the concern of dealing with other close quarter styles comes from unless there is a shift in the training paradigm but to my knowledge any traditional mantis kung fu should have no problem with that.

Just some observations

Mantis108