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Thread: Boxing

  1. #151
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    Thanks for your replies, and i agree with using low kicks to keep boxers out of punching range. However, i'm a little concerned with limiting myself to one technique. I do know that in a real fight my instinct tells me to kick right off the bat, but i'd like to be capable of more than that. what other alternatives?

  2. #152
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    SilentMantis,
    It is good that you practice with other stylists like boxers.
    There are a lot of good things to be said about boxing.

    I believe that under boxing rules the method is close to perfect.
    In other words you have to learn that style to play that game.

    Since those 4 punches are already in Mantis it couldn't hurt to do that.

    If you have a friend or partner who is willing to try his boxing vs your Mantis that is good too.
    You will have a partner who is trying to hit your head very hard while you try to apply your Mantis.

    This is a good way to practice after you are very fluent with some of your 2 man drills.

    As for strategy.
    My guess is your opponent is thinking offensive, not defensive.
    You should have this mindset too.

    NorthernMantis,

    I don't suggest the pushkick because that is more useful in competitions where it is against the rules to grab the leg.

    Youngmantis,
    Although the knee kick seems good in theory rarely does it do anything(not including the takedown version).
    This is from my own experience in local skill testing matches.
    All I get is scraped or cut skin, but doesn't stop me.

    This experience matches my shrfu's experience.
    When the knee is bent it is very strong.

    Also, this strategy, as well as the push kick strategy is "keep him away" mentality.
    Contrast that with the "KO" stratagy of boxing.

    More?
    Mantis has an interesting habit of using the left hand to "seal" the opponents right hand while simultaneusly using the right hand to perform straight punch-hook punch combo.

    This is called Di Lo(under leak) and is found in many Mantis forms.

  3. #153
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    Ok what would you guy's do if the boxer you are fighting happend to be an ex kickboxer or even worse a thai boxer, someone who is comfatable in kicking range(especially low line kicks) and in grappling range for their use of elbows and knees

  4. #154
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    Chaz,
    Dealing with kickboxers and thai boxers is a whole new topic. However, kick, thai, and just boxers have something in common. They all use the jab or the punch as a means to set up their next move. I've seen this through experience. I've taken thai boxing and sparred with kickboxers and boxers. This is why i think learning how to effectively use slipping, ducking, rolling, the snap back, and bob and weave will surprise these fighters and create an opening where one can unleash his mantis offense. Mantis already provides the footwork for this to be possible, and i think this is one of the best ways to deal with quick jabs and punches. You can't hit what's not there.

  5. #155
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    Smile Boxing the boxer...

    First off, I agree with Tainan. It won't hurt to know thy foe.

    Some observation:

    1) Boxers, especially street boxers, know how to clinch and fight in a clinch. They also have a bag of tricks that you will be caught off guard if you think in terms of sport version of it. So to do trapping is not really the safest bet.

    2) I stress on Tainan's point about the lack of aggressiveness in quite a lot of Kung Fu stylists today. Boxers are trained to unleash hell in the smallest time frame possible. That's why they training in 3 mins rounds. If you manage to take that away from them, you will have a better chance of gaining the upper hand. You will have to gain dominance by literally knocking the wind out of them. Strong and fast side kick to the rib would work wonder except that your friend may not appreciate it as much as you would. I have tried with success on one of my students, who had amature league boxing experience and also outweighed me more than 50 lbs, the following technique. Once you get an openning in the centerline, you immediately chain punch the openning and don't let up no matter what. The idea is to get him back up and you follow in till the rope. That way you take the fight out of his hands. The problem is chain punch isn't a mantis technique per se. The other thing is that it is not easy to pull off and when it does you have only one chance to work him. If he knows that you can do that on him, the chance of a repeat is not likely. BTW, chain punch to the centerline work better on boxers who have bad habits such as treading with the heels (re: poor footwork). So do collect intelligence before you make your move.

    3) Defanging would be a good idea if boxer is going bare hand. They are used to wrapping their hands. Having iron hand isn't boxing's strong suit. Knocking their jabs around the back of the fist and/or wrist and eblow joint with your knuckles or elbow to destroy that weapon is simple and effective. Also the knife hands chop move in Beng bu 3rd road is also a handy technique for defanging. Againg I don't think your friend will appreciate these though because you are not following the boxing rule with these.

    4) Thai boxers used to have great hand techniques until their art became sport and rules are set. Those gorgeous elbow techniques that they have is a reminder of that. Like Tainan pointed out before, the 4 punches and duck, rolling, slipping, snap back, parrying, etc... are in Mantis skill already(and I am talking about traditionally available). Whether the school or the teacher put focus on these things, it is going to be a different story. Mantis is great with close quarter combat stuff (elbows and knees) so I don't see where the concern of dealing with other close quarter styles comes from unless there is a shift in the training paradigm but to my knowledge any traditional mantis kung fu should have no problem with that.

    Just some observations

    Mantis108
    Contraria Sunt Complementa

    對敵交手歌訣

    凡立勢不可站定。凡交手須是要走。千着萬着﹐走為上着﹐進為高着﹐閃賺騰挪為
    妙着。


    CCK TCPM in Yellowknife

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  6. #156

    mantis against boxers

    Silent Mantis, You have the techniques in the Mantis system to deal with jabs/punches. You can utilize Body Methods(Shen Fa).
    Dodging, fading back, shifting etc. I personnaly used to get caught up with learning everyone else's systems. I agree with you on the foot work of mantis. Great tool. Can you get hit by a Boxer?, sure. But within your system and constant practise you will find methods of dealing with it. One thing I won't do is play by the boxers game. They attack, I'll get out of the way. But, then it's my turn. I think it's great you get to practise with a boxer. They usually have such fast hands. Great way to see were you are at with your techniques.

    good Luck,

    V/r
    Steve M.

  7. #157
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    I agree that scope of techniques in the mantis style is large. I just haven't seen these types of evasive tactics taught within forms. I do believe that learning and developing these tactics (slipping, ducking ect) will develope anyone into a more complete fighter. thanks for your help

  8. #158
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    Smile

    Forms aren't be all end all despite the fact that they offer much of the great stuff including Shun Fa (body method). Besides one needs to drill the various pieces in the forms with a live and resistive partner to make sure things work the way they supposed to be. That's why there are drills, ling forms and 2 men forms beside fighting/sparring in PM training. I know schools such as Tainan Mantis, Ponglai and many others on this board are offering the practical and important skills of PM that you brought up. I'd encourage you to contact them to see for yourself if you feel like expanding your horrizon.

    Mantis108
    Contraria Sunt Complementa

    對敵交手歌訣

    凡立勢不可站定。凡交手須是要走。千着萬着﹐走為上着﹐進為高着﹐閃賺騰挪為
    妙着。


    CCK TCPM in Yellowknife

    TJPM Forum

  9. #159
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    Re: Boxing

    Originally posted by SilentMantis
    Throughout my sparring experiences, i find that the most difficult type of fighter to deal with is a boxer. They throw stiff, quick jabs and they can move well, making them hard to hit. What defense strategies should a mantis practitioner use against a boxer? Should we venture into learning boxing techniques such as slipping, ducking ect and incorporating them into mantis training in order to deal with this threat? Comments
    In my own experience, it is hard to attack a boxer because they move soo well. I have to counter-attack off the boxers Jabs and Hooks. I usually switch between using the 1st or 2nd keyword (Ou and Lau) with the front-hand, and launch either a straight-punch or hook with the rear-hand, when the opportunity presents itself. However, it is difficult to execute these techniques with boxing gloves on.

    A quick and stiff jab will work well against any fighter of any style you encounter. If you don't have a stiff jab, get one. It is not a difficult strike to develop, and not a difficult strike to use.

    Using upward elbow strikes in the clinch is useful.

    In the clinch, try to secure an arm-bar, wrist-lock, or other quick, uncomplicated arm-lock. It is difficult to get a Boxer in an arm-bar/wrist-lock because their hands move soo fast, but if you're able to secure one during a clinch, it can be a show-stopper. If he detects you attempting a lock, he will try to punch his way out of the clinch.

    Slap-blocking combined with moving out of range works well defensively against a jab.

    Learning how to slip and duck is indispensible when fighting with someone who is larger and/or stronger than you, and likes to strike. Then you don't have to deal with blocking the "hay-makers". Just evade them.

  10. #160
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    Steal their peach

  11. #161
    Just a few opinions on boxing....
    It's emphasis on speed, evasion and economy of movement must place it among the fastest, most unpredictable and therefore most likely to be effective among the fighting arts, when employed by an expert with time to get his hands up. However, its basic artificiality, its limited range of responses, its almost total lack of anything that could be called a system, the fact that it relies for its successful operation upon skills that cannot really be taught to anybody who does not posses them naturally, and above all the fact that it can be used effectively only by the most athletic, all come close to disqualifying it as a fighting art at all. Its weaknesses arise from the fact of its being above all else a sport. Punching is spectacular. Blocking is not. More seriously still boxing, being a sport, is performed according to certain rules and subject to certain limitations. Boxing is thus based on the assumption that in any fight one will be wearing padded gloves: will be naked to the waist, and will not be allowed to deliver, and therefore not have to gaurd against, blows delivered below the waist, or delivered to any part of the body except with clenched fists. The effect of the glove is all-important here. The boxer is not in reality hitting with his knuckles at all. He is hitting with a blunt instrument. The effect of his blows will therefore depend not on focusing for penetration, but on the speed and weight he can put behind the wide surface of the glove which will be coming into contact with his opponents body. Hence, the boxer, unlike any other self-defence exponent, delivers his most effective blows with a rolling motion, punching with a horizontal fist across his body, following through like a tennis player or golfer. One might say his punches would be less effective without the gloves. What these fatcs do illustrate is that boxing has many very serious limitations as a form of self-defence. It is for example unique among self defence techniques in having no formal system of defence. The boxer relies for protection on his ability to duck or slip punches; to cushion them on his arms, the palms of his hands or relatively insesnitive parts of his body and above all to hit his opponent first.

  12. #162
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    Originally posted by HappyNoodleBoy
    ...
    However, its basic artificiality, its limited range of responses, its almost total lack of anything that could be called a system, the fact that it relies for its successful operation upon skills that cannot really be taught to anybody who does not posses them naturally, and above all the fact that it can be used effectively only by the most athletic, all come close to disqualifying it as a fighting art at all.
    ...
    I respectfully disagree with the statement that boxing could be used by "only the most athletic", and "skills cannot be taught to anybody who does not possess them naturally". I know boxers that weren't "athletic" UNTIL they started boxing. Then, after training a while, they were faster, stronger, and had alot of energy. And definitely knew how to throw hands, and were comfortable throwing them. Boxing is very simple to learn. There aren't many techniques to become familiar with. It is the CONDITIONING (different types of Bag-work, Calistenics(?), and sparring) that make the boxer an effective fighter.

    Its weaknesses arise from the fact of its being above all else a sport. Punching is spectacular. Blocking is not. More seriously still boxing, being a sport, is performed according to certain rules and subject to certain limitations. Boxing is thus based on the assumption that in any fight one will be wearing padded gloves: will be naked to the waist, and will not be allowed to deliver, and therefore not have to gaurd against, blows delivered below the waist, or delivered to any part of the body except with clenched fists.
    Don't think that a boxer in a real fight can't hit below the waist, or strike with anything but a clenched fist. They can slap, pull hair, punch to the back of the neck, the groin, the throat, throw elbows, head-butts, gouge an eye, and pull hair. Shucks, you don't need formal fighting training to know how to pull hair.

    The effect of the glove is all-important here. The boxer is not in reality hitting with his knuckles at all. He is hitting with a blunt instrument. The effect of his blows will therefore depend not on focusing for penetration, but on the speed and weight he can put behind the wide surface of the glove which will be coming into contact with his opponents body. Hence, the boxer, unlike any other self-defence exponent, delivers his most effective blows with a rolling motion, punching with a horizontal fist across his body, following through like a tennis player or golfer. One might say his punches would be less effective without the gloves.
    Maybe Mike Tyson's punches aren't as effective without a glove as with a glove. Still, when he hit Mitch "Blood" Green in front of "Dapper Dan's" in Harlem, he shattered bones in that man's face. He did hurt his wrist though. But on TV when Mr. Green pulled of his shades, his face looked permanently deformed. Tyson only hit him once...

    Tyson hit another guy this year in front of a Hotel, and that guy said he felt like he was hit with "a piece of steel". He couldn't feel the left-side of his face for more than 2 days, and had a constant headache. Tyson didn't hurt his wrist in this incident. He must've learned how to hit without his gloves on. I'm sure the transition from gloves "on" to gloves "off" wasn't difficult.
    What these fatcs do illustrate is that boxing has many very serious limitations as a form of self-defence. It is for example unique among self defence techniques in having no formal system of defence. The boxer relies for protection on his ability to duck or slip punches; to cushion them on his arms, the palms of his hands or relatively insesnitive parts of his body and above all to hit his opponent first.
    Ducking and slipping punches is an excellent way to avoid getting hit. When you duck and slip well, you can deal with VERY heavy strikes from fighters larger and stronger than you, because your arms/legs never come in contact with that of your opponent. Also, boxers don't ALWAYS cushion strikes on the palms of their hands. The boxers that I've sparred with often slap-block my strikes down, or to the side. Kind of like the Wing-Chun Pak-Sau (not exactly, though).

    I will agree that Boxing has limitations in Self-Defense because they don't kick, sweep, grapple, or do Chin-Na. Still, I wouldn't call Boxing ineffective because it didn't include these techniques.

    There are other systems that punch, kick, sweep, grapple, do Chin-Na and STILL have limitations. I wouldn't call these fighting art/systems ineffective, either.

    In short, I wouldn't call a fighting art/system ineffective because it had limitations.

    I may be giving a biased opinion here, but only because I've seen soo many fighters trained in boxing, kick butt. Most of them weren't even Professional boxers. But that is just me and my experiences.

    Respectfully

    MantisBen

  13. #163
    I never once said boxing was ineffective. I actually stated the exact opposite.

  14. #164
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    Originally posted by HappyNoodleBoy
    I never once said boxing was ineffective. I actually stated the exact opposite.
    My humblest apologies! After reading your post, it sounded to me as if you were going in that direction with posts like the following:
    However, its basic artificiality, its limited range of responses, its almost total lack of anything that could be called a system, the fact that it relies for its successful operation upon skills that cannot really be taught to anybody who does not posses them naturally, and above all the fact that it can be used effectively only by the most athletic, all come close to disqualifying it as a fighting art at all.
    I sincerely apologize. I'll even delete my post if you are offended by it.

    Respectfully

    MantisBen

  15. #165

    Boxing

    The other day my friend brought two pairs of boxing gloves to school and we started boxing in the gym. And **** is it hard to box. I'm small guy compared to all my friends and I know i've got faster punches than my friends but when i put the gloves on my punches aren't so quick anymore.

    Well we're probably gonna box again this monday so do you guys have any tips on how to win over a bigger guy in a boxing match?

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