Eagle Claw

[David Jamieson]

This is a good example of how to complete a form. Anyone who knows and understands something about Chinese martial arts should understand what is going on in this clip and what the purposes of the form are.

Respect - Like this a lot.

1st post? really?

[wave01uk]

Yeah - I'm a newby to this forum.

[xcakid]

As a previous, many moons ago, Ying Jow Pai practitioner, I can see some pretty cool applications there.

With regards to GoldenArhats comment: I believe you look at martial arts in the fighters perspective. Basically, "if you can kick my ass, I will bow to you" What this YOUNG VIEW of the MA does not understand is the full appreciation of the ENTIRE art. During my teens to mid 20's, my emphasis in martial was fighting as well. Never cared much for form or even learning about anything else other than fighting. Competed in Sanda quite a bit and never did forms. Although admitedly I was only marginally "good" as Sanda. Nevertheless I liked doing it. And given your previous post about traditional MA, it seems that you had had some bad instructors and/or bad experience. Sometimes that can be attributed to impatiences on the part of the student. Fighting is only once facet in the world of martial arts.

[Shaolinlueb]

i believe julian dale posts on this thing (aka the kung fu forum message board).

[wave01uk]

You never know.

[ngokfei]

form is form, fighting is fighting.

same but different.

always necessary

[wave01uk]

or from another perspective you could say form is fighting and fighting is form

[David Jamieson]

or from another perspective you could say form is fighting and fighting is form

I don't know what that perspective would be.
Certainly not one I would take.

Form can show a persons strength and their weakness, but it cannot demonstrate their ability to defend themselves in reality in any way.

But if you want to be all zen and cerebral (which fighting isn't, it's visceral) then fine.

never be complacent in your training though.

I'm a big supporter of the lessons to be had from tasting your own blood in your mouth. Infinitely useful.

If you never have, if you've never fought, then it deserves your time and effort to do so if one claims to be a martial artist.

[wave01uk]

I don't know what that perspective would be.
Certainly not one I would take.

Form can show a persons strength and their weakness, but it cannot demonstrate their ability to defend themselves in reality in any way.

But if you want to be all zen and cerebral (which fighting isn't, it's visceral) then fine.

never be complacent in your training though.

I'm a big supporter of the lessons to be had from tasting your own blood in your mouth. Infinitely useful.

If you never have, if you've never fought, then it deserves your time and effort to do so if one claims to be a martial artist.

But if you want to be all zen and cerebral - hehe, would have said anal. I'll have to remember this one.

I understand what you say. But, I'm not looking to fight, unless I have to. 'Artist' - it is a quest for perfection and preservation of a skill. You don't have to sell paintings to be a painter and enjoy doing it.

[David Jamieson]

But if you want to be all zen and cerebral - hehe, would have said anal. I'll have to remember this one.

I understand what you say. But, I'm not looking to fight, unless I have to. 'Artist' - it is a quest for perfection and preservation of a skill. You don't have to sell paintings to be a painter and enjoy doing it.

Not understanding your equation.

A painter paints, he produces his applied art.

Fighting can only be expressed through fighting. Otherwise it is ballet.

form is a method not an end.

If a martial artist never fights, then all they've done is learn what a brush is a theory on how to use it.

You have to use the brush to create the art.

[wave01uk]

Not understanding your equation.

A painter paints, he produces his applied art.

Fighting can only be expressed through fighting. Otherwise it is ballet.

form is a method not an end.

If a martial artist never fights, then all they've done is learn what a brush is a theory on how to use it.

You have to use the brush to create the art.

I hear you. I understand that to learn properly you need to have practical experience. It is pretty difficult to get this knowledge. I have only been training solidly for a bit over 2 years (still a fledgling) and what I have learnt cannot be used in any legal compo in this country. I would only use it on the street as a last resort because my level of skill is not high enough (in my opinion) and I could end up seriously hurting someone and end up in trouble myself.

[golden arhat]

Not understanding your equation.

A painter paints, he produces his applied art.

Fighting can only be expressed through fighting. Otherwise it is ballet.

form is a method not an end.

If a martial artist never fights, then all they've done is learn what a brush is a theory on how to use it.

You have to use the brush to create the art.

correct, the art is not the forms and the perfecting of skill and all the rest of it

the "art" in "martial arts"is destroying your opponent its the end in of itself
if you gain some valuable life lessons while learning how best to win fights then great
but it martial arts is the art of fighting, there isnt a martial side and an art side
there isnt aside for fighting and a side for dancing as people seem to think there is
it is the art of fighting and the art of winning. no separation

[wave01uk]

You can own a gun and learn to use it, enjoy using it for fun by shooting targets. Or you can go kill with it. What you do with the skill and how you use it can be enjoyed in different ways. You don't have to shoot someone to say 'I know how to use a gun'.

[David Jamieson]

You can own a gun and learn to use it, enjoy using it for fun by shooting targets. Or you can go kill with it. What you do with the skill and how you use it can be enjoyed in different ways. You don't have to shoot someone to say 'I know how to use a gun'.

you do have to hit targets. you do have to produce a result to say you know how to use a gun. You don't have to shoot someone, but you do have to shoot something. You cant just load it, point it and never pull the trigger.

if you cannot use your art to fight, then you cannot use your art and need more study and practice. You have to pull the trigger to see if you do indeed understand your art. It cannot be understood fully without applying it in context to what it is to be used for.

What will you equate it to next?

fighting is fighting, form is form, fighting is the act of employing your art, form is the act of developing it through method use.

[KC Elbows]

I know I'm not the first to say it, but forms are scales, fighting is using those scales.

One can play and pick up the scales from what seems to fit by trial and error, but this requires one person to relearn what ages of people have codified.

You can play the scales, perform by rote, and be decent as long as you know the song, but this never develops a real understanding of the scales themselves, and thus limits what you can do with them.

Know the scales and their usage, and you will bag scores of women with low self esteem, freaky women with father complexes and skimpy lingerie.

Know the songs by rote, and you will bag junior high school music teachers.

The decision is clear, even if the metaphor is not.