Whats up with this liniment?

[TenTigers]

NO!! The jow enters your body through the skin, pores, capilary action and is absorbed into your system, which is why you sweat it.It is in your saliva as well. It is in your seminal fluid, and is absorbed into the woman's body as well.
If it only stayed on the surface of your skin, how would it possibly work?

[herb ox]

so I've been looking at this formula for awhile... overall, it's pretty hot given the chuan jiao, cao wu, chuan wu, and ban xia, but is balanced by the cold/cool substances. It has blood moving herbs as expected as well as substances to help heal bone fractures (the iron, long gu). Several herbs are for treating fungal/parasite infections (i.e. sulfur, she chuan zi, li lu, bai bu), but are also known to help heal the skin AND they go to the kidney which would further reinforce the bone. The pumice and pinellia and salt (which also goes to the kidneys) help to dissolve nodules likely incurred during training.

My theory is that vinegar and salt make a solution that dissolves the iron and calcium (dragon bone) better than alcohol, thus making a more potent solution that actually hardens the bones of the hands. Oh yeah, and vinegar helps dissolve nodules...

interesting formula... makes sense to me as a formula for advanced training.

cheers

herb ox

[AllSkillsMine]

Herb Ox--

Thanks for the reply. Very informative. All things aside, does the fact that it uses vinegar as the solvent fit with what most other people have said--that it is should be used very sparingly?

I know that acetic acid is a chelator of calcium, and many people have said here-and elsewhere-that will make the bones brittle if over used.

Of course, I don't know where to get black vinegar, (is it balsamic?) but it may have other stuff in it which mitigates the acetic acid.

After reading your last post, it sounds like it would do the opposite(?).

You seem to be pretty knowledgeable about herbs. Is there anything about the formula that would explain its (apparent) use for iron fingers/grip training?

Also, you said it makes sense as an advanced formula. How do you think it would compare to, for example, Ku Yu Cheung's IP (pick any version, lol) -with all of the animal ingredients except tiger bone and pangolin scales.

I think the pin yin may be a bit off--I cant find the di ding (chicken gizzard?)or the tang gu xiao in any books or data bases.
Is the shan xiao ding the same thing as sheng tie luo?

Thanks again, hoping for more of your herbal expertise.

[TenTigers]

Black Vinegar is Hohk Cho, found in Chinese supermarkets.
If you stew pig's knuckles in Hohk Cho with ginger, it is good to nourish and rebuild the body after childbirth.
It's also delicious!

[AllSkillsMine]

Thanks TenTigers, I might try that. Reminds me of 'Bizarre Foods' .
If it looks good, eat it!

[Dale Dugas]

The formulas being talked about are a little more harsh than most out there.

Being that someone slapped the Shaolin label on them means nothing.

To give credence to many formula, people add the words Old or 100 year old, etc to make them appear they have been used for generations rather than state the truth that someone came up with the formula yesterday.

I have something similar in a soak that is used in high level IP training. But I dont like to add much vinegar at all.

I would Rather use white wine as the base and then add a cup or two of black vinegar or high proof booze.

This would be used to treat the hands before hitting the bags, then after you are finished you would use a regular Iron Palm training Dit Da Jow.

Choy Lei Fut uses more of the pre soak and post Dit Da Jow manner of training than most styles.

As Herb Ox mentioned. This formula has some serious poisons in it, and its very very hot.

This could lead to giving the person using it more heat in their system if they did not know how to get rid of it.

I would much rather use softer more subtle formulas than ones that were mentioned earlier. All roads can lead to the same destination but some of the roads are just too harsh on me.

[Dale Dugas]

The hot formulas mentioned are not at all like the Ku Yu Cheong formulas you see out there. They have more kill pain and warm and move blood herbs.

This to me would be a formula that would be more for external iron palm versus internal iron palm.

Great for karate people that bang their hands to death.

But for people looking for internal IP, the hot formulas are way over the top.

Hence my beginning IP medicine is very strong, and the advanced formulas are more subtle.

You could use any decent IP medicine to train your fingers as they are attached to your hands.

Heat the medicine up and soak your hands/fingers. Then you can use a bucket of soybeans to stick your hands into and perform all manner of flapping exercises to strengthen the extensor and flexor muscles of the lower arm.

The first leve of Iron Finger/Iron Claw training is to train the muscles of the arm. Then after a year or more of that training you progress to steel shot. That will then train the piercing and power methods.

Hope this helps.

[AllSkillsMine]

Brother Dale--thanks for your contribution.

It seems highly illogical to me to use only vinegar as the base for a liniment. Not to mention highly smelly. Your mention of formulas having names tagged onto them to make them seem more credible, or enticing makes me wonder if one of the descriptions of this formula is true;

"This strong Shaolin formula is originally from Ta Mo’s “Sinew Change Classic”

I didn't think Ta Mo did much with herbs, let alone conditioning methods.

Oh well. Makes for good reading.

[AllSkillsMine]

Either way, I only have this to add as far as body absorption goes--

I once read that when the liver isn't functioning at its best, the prostate is one place in men that toxins get stores. As well as fatty tissue.

There are a lot of hormone type compounds in many herbs.

I dont know if I believe either way that the jow I use could make its way to my semen-unless through my high level hairy palm skills!!

But, I do believe it could affect a woman internally in some way if she applied dit da jow to her hands. But I really dont know.

[TenTigers]

your skin absorbs the jow into the body. How else would you suppose that it heals a bruise, or strengthens your bone and tissue? If it was only on the surface, it would be totally useless for any type of conditioning, or healing.
Once in is absorbed into the skin, it is broken down and absorbed into the entire system. Like I said, if you soak your hands in it and it comes out through your pores in your sweat, then why would you think it does not make it into your seminal fluid?

[TenTigers]

hmmm, so much for my Chang Seng-Feng Tai-Chi Iron Body Jow Formula....

[AllSkillsMine]

I don't have a strong opinion either way about the issue of jow/pregnency. I just dont know enough. So, Im not claiming, or discrediting it either way.

On a different note, has anyone tried going through the progression of liniments in Jerry Alan Johnson's book, "The Essence of Internal Martial Arts"? I think there are several, including a version of Ku Yu Cheungs IP.

To anybody who has read the second volume, how useful is the information on 'vibration' in it?

[Dale Dugas]

Shifu Johnsons Ku Yu Cheong is the run of the mill version that is around.

I have one that is a little more powerful and has somethings in it that are absent from his.

Be leery of vibrational training without someone who has done extensive work on it and can personally guide you.

[AllSkillsMine]

I was thinking about buying it, for lack of a teacher on vibrational training where I live-as far as I know. But the book is kind of expensive, and it sounds like I'm better off waiting until I can get personal instruction on the subject. Better safe than messed up or otherwise!

[herb ox]

I trained very briefly under Sifu Johnson...

I'd say his 'vibrational' skills run pretty deep. His books are good introductions to cultivating those skills. His Medical Qigong series books are used as textbooks at acupuncture schools.

Can't judge a brother by his jow alone...

peace

herb ox