Junior Member
It's a good idea to get as much experience and knowledge as possible, but I would suggest taking the time and dedication to learn the basics of one first say at least 6 months of dedicated training before tackling another. Simply because it could be confusing, but crosstraining is a great way to gain experience and open yourself to new ideas. So is simply sparring with people from other systems and trading ideas.
Registered User
If you're better at striking than grappling, then you try to keep the fight standing up, but always be as prepared as possible for a fight on the ground. Its a way of fighting that you cannot avoid in a general sense.Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu
The idea that grappling is inferior to your purpose is ridiculous. Its like a grappler saying striking is inferior to their purpose. The fact of the matter is, grapplers cannot avoid striking, and strikers cannot avoid grappling, in a general sense.
What that means is, there is never NOT going to be a chance that you will run into someone who can take you to the ground. And there is never NOT going to be a chance that a grappler is going to run into a striker who can keep them on their feet. The ideas may sound contridactory, but they're not and the reason why is because you never know who your next opponent is going to be, their skill level, or anything like that. Thus, you need to be prepared to fight not just in your strength but also in your weaknesses. A well rounded fighter can handle a greater number of opponents than a fighter who has only one specialty.
That being said, from a martial arts perspective, grappling is a part of fighting, not a style of fighting, thus as said before, it cannot be inferior to your purpose, your purpose is to fight in the situations where fighting is necessary. And the idea of a level of control over any situation to the point where you won't ever be on your back or on the ground, fighting, shows a very clear lack of understanding of the way the world works. There is very little control you can exercise over a dangerous situation.
Resigned
oh, where is HW108 to pound some sense into all of your knuckley-heads and shine the light of truth onto the path for the newbie troll?
攻裏有防 , 防裏有攻
Glorified Wrestlers?
It is bias to think that the art of war is just for killing people. It is not to kill people, it is to kill evil. It is a strategem to give life to many people by killing the evil of one person.
- Yagyū Munenori
Banned
Wrestlers are already glorious.
Registered User
Grappling is really important in a modern martial art, if you want to be an all round fighter. Fortunately WC is already crammed full of grappling, its all there in the forms right in plain sight. If you can see it. It doesnt deal with groundfighting though, so this would have to come from outside of the system, it just isnt there.
Mixing WC with other grappling styles wouldnt water it down, but merely compliment it. Its already there, but there are still new concepts and directions to learn. e.g. underhooks, overhooks etc etc.
WC is a lot more flexible than the constrictive moulds some people try to constrain it to through their lack of understanding.
GM of Hadaka Korosu
Which one is it? plain sight or if you can see it ?Fortunately WC is already crammed full of grappling, its all there in the forms right in plain sight. If you can see it.
Banned
As I see WCK, the method (faat) or basic gameplan of WCK is to control the opponent while striking him. To control an opponent requires "grappling". Chi sao is "grappling". Lop sao is "grappling". Those drills teach you how to mix grappling (controlling) and striking.
Moreover, as I see it, WCK is essentially a basic framework (like any other martial art), and you can add to the framework without compromising its integrity.
Registered User
To an extent, I agree with you here.
I totally disagree. You don't have to 'grapple' someone to take control of them (and by control, I am assuming you are meaning thier COG & limbs). You do have to connect with your opponent, have a superior position and proper leverage, but you don't have to grab or hold them tocontrol them.
Grapple (from dictionary.com):
verb (used without object)
1. to hold or make fast to something, as with a grapple.
..
3. to seize another, or each other, in a firm grip, as in wrestling; clinch.
4. to engage in a struggle or close encounter (usually fol. by with): He was grappling with a boy twice his size.
–verb (used with object)
6. to seize, hold, or fasten with or as with a grapple.
7. to seize in a grip, take hold of: The thug grappled him around the neck
Even in the technique lop sau, you shouldn't have a firm hold or grasp on your opponent. You shouldn't totally grab with your thumb and hold on - that would be grappling by definition. This would slow you down and give some of your advantage back to your opponent. You would then have to release your grab if you wanted to strike which gives your opponent time to react.
Chi Sau in the traditional sense is surely about bridging and controlling your opponent, but it's not grappling either. Grappling only can happen when you lose your advantage of control in the chi sau moment
Registered User
Actually, a proper grip on a kimono or clothes in grappling does not involve totally grabbing with your thumb and holding on - that expends too much energy and leaves you stiff which allows your opponent a lever. Proper sleeve / collar grip is bottom 3 fingers. Loose, but pulling away it gets tighter. Or leaves you free to release and move.
Like lop sau, no?
Registered User
So how well does your chi sau / lop sau "grappling" work against BJJ black belts?
That said I agree also that the method/faat/gameplan of WCK is you controlling your space and your opponents space. To control an opponent can happen with a bridge, but can also happen with superior positioning without a bridge.
Registered User
Depends which Lop
As for mixing grappling with WC, I agree with some of what was said above. A person should go out and play and experience different styles as the opportunity becomes available to them, especially if a high-level teacher falls in your path. Just know that if you stick with WC, eventually the two won't mix and you'll have to choose one over the other.
Banned
The "grappling" I'm talking about takes place STANDING.
Space is an aspect of control, as is positioning. A "bridge" is required. What I mean by "bridge" is a connection to the opponent (not necessarily with his arm). Without contact, there can be no control.
Banned
I don't really care whether someone who does fantasy fu agrees with me or not.
Semantics. "Grappling" is maintaining sustained contact with an opponent. Naturally it does involve holding/seizing but there are also other aspects (like pressing, spreading, jerking, etc.). And there are varying degrees of control. To fully control someone for anything other than a very brief period of time, you must grab them. Should you ever learn WCK, you'll see this is true.I totally disagree. You don't have to 'grapple' someone to take control of them (and by control, I am assuming you are meaning thier COG & limbs). You do have to connect with your opponent, have a superior position and proper leverage, but you don't have to grab or hold them tocontrol them.
Grapple (from dictionary.com):
verb (used without object)
1. to hold or make fast to something, as with a grapple.
..
3. to seize another, or each other, in a firm grip, as in wrestling; clinch.
4. to engage in a struggle or close encounter (usually fol. by with): He was grappling with a boy twice his size.
–verb (used with object)
6. to seize, hold, or fasten with or as with a grapple.
7. to seize in a grip, take hold of: The thug grappled him around the neck
All of this is nonsense. And, I can tell by your description that you think the objective of the lop sao exercise is to strike the opponent. It's not.Even in the technique lop sau, you shouldn't have a firm hold or grasp on your opponent. You shouldn't totally grab with your thumb and hold on - that would be grappling by definition. This would slow you down and give some of your advantage back to your opponent. You would then have to release your grab if you wanted to strike which gives your opponent time to react.
Chi Sau in the traditional sense is surely about bridging and controlling your opponent, but it's not grappling either. Grappling only can happen when you lose your advantage of control in the chi sau moment
Chi sao is grappling with striking. Sustained contact is grappling. There are many different ways to maintain sustained contact. Chi sao isn't a "moment", it is an artificial, unrealistic exercise.
Registered User
Not true, sustained arm to arm contact is called bridging. It's a hallmark of most Chinese martial arts, you should try to learn one sometime.
To a degree you are right, Lop Sao isn't about "hitting" it's about controlling facing and re-establishing your own. As WCK is a striking art, once you establish proper range and facing, you should hit. So from another point it is about hitting, it always is....
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